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The games industry is undergoing a 'generational change,' says Epic CEO Tim: 'A lot of games are released with high budgets, and they're not selling’
- Thread starter ArtHands
- Start date
bitbydeath
Member
I don’t know about that.
Concord was certainly in the news a lot more than any other on this site.
Men_in_Boxes
Snake Oil Salesman
Friends weren't asking friends to grab Concord. That was it's issue.
Tiago Rodrigues
Member
Meanwhile asian companies like Capcom got their act together after the PS3 gen and started to do what worked best for them and what they were good at. What was their last flop game? Most stuff they release is a hit. Most stuff are single player games.
Maybe if people give gamers what they want those games will sell?
Two years ago people were surprised at Elden Ring. This year is Black Myth: Wukong. Last year was Hogwarts Legacy. This last one isn't Japanese but it's a big IP that finally got everything right and gamers were there for it.
I'm not even going to mention single player games from Sony like Ragnarok and Spider-Man 2.
Most games not selling are games rush released, games no one asked for, live games that are trying to do what others already out there are doing but...worse.
There's also the fact we never had so many games released like nowadays. Many live games are eating away everyone's times...and i really think we have hit a breaking point. This industry can't support more games like GTA, Fortnite, etc. Single player games is something you can play for like 10/100 hours and then drop them and go back to whatever live games you already play. But asking gamers to be active in like 3 or more live games it's just not...happening. And people aren't going to leave Fortnite, Roblox, etc.
Maybe the problem is everyone is trying to have their live games and people aren't here for it?
Maybe if people give gamers what they want those games will sell?
Two years ago people were surprised at Elden Ring. This year is Black Myth: Wukong. Last year was Hogwarts Legacy. This last one isn't Japanese but it's a big IP that finally got everything right and gamers were there for it.
I'm not even going to mention single player games from Sony like Ragnarok and Spider-Man 2.
Most games not selling are games rush released, games no one asked for, live games that are trying to do what others already out there are doing but...worse.
There's also the fact we never had so many games released like nowadays. Many live games are eating away everyone's times...and i really think we have hit a breaking point. This industry can't support more games like GTA, Fortnite, etc. Single player games is something you can play for like 10/100 hours and then drop them and go back to whatever live games you already play. But asking gamers to be active in like 3 or more live games it's just not...happening. And people aren't going to leave Fortnite, Roblox, etc.
Maybe the problem is everyone is trying to have their live games and people aren't here for it?
bitbydeath
Member
Friends don’t talk about any GaaS games aside from the small handful that made it.
Men_in_Boxes
Snake Oil Salesman
namenotfound
Member
He's really just saying this to hype up Fortnite and try to make himself sound like a visionary with Fortnite BR rather than that being a trend chaser off PUBG. Was it even his idea to put together a BR mode in Fortnite? I highly doubt he plays a big role in game design. I doubt he's played much of a role in that past the 90s. I also don't think Fortnite play a big role in the struggles of AAA games single player games. I think single player AAA's issues are more of a problem of cookie cutter stories that used to sell on the novelty of the latest graphics advancements. If people got engrossed in the stories and fictional worlds, they'd be much more into it.
I think graphics progression being a great sales point ended midway in the PS4 generation. Dark Souls 3 hitting 10 million in sales while being difficult, narrative not being its content and marketing focus, and graphics not being top tier. Also the existence of all these 10 million+ sales Nintendo Switch games. A lot of indie games look great compared to the sidescrollers of 2009 and they often ooze style compared to realistic AAA games go for. On Steam there a bunch of games with single digit thousands to tens of thousands of user reviews and little to no reviews listed on OpenCritic/Metacritic. There's no lacking of options to need to accept mediocrity for the sake of sparkly graphics. And you can stay in your niche. The internet made it so you could be a part of a niche community and it be very active because it's people all over the world adding up to a lot rather than needing what you like to be shared with people at school/work/etc. You like JRPGs, then head to Steam or the Switch which both probably have hundreds of JRPGs from the classics to like a dozen no-solo dev but funded studio JRPGs a year. JRPG subreddit for community. Rouguelites or metroidvanias, got to be hundreds of those every year with at least a dozen or maybe dozens that are solidly fun to play. roguelite, roguelike, metroidvania subreddits
And to me the elephant in the room for AAA single player games being Genshin Impact and Honkai Star Rail and what looks to me an increasing amount of games that graphically look about as good as Genshin or better free to play single player gacha games. They can adjust patch by patch story elements to player feedback. Same with gameplay loops. Patch by patch try new game modes and combat styles of new characters. When playing multiplayer games, it's been for a while now a question of why spend money on a new game I don't know I'll like when I can spend money on DLC in a game I'm already playing and know I like? High budget single player gacha games are introducing that question to people that play single player games and give those gacha games a try whether on mobile, pc, or console. That is an additional advantage. They usually release mobile, PC, and console and people can easily play at school with the phone they usually always have or at work or on a bus, etc. Then at home play on a game console or PC with easier to use controls
I think graphics progression being a great sales point ended midway in the PS4 generation. Dark Souls 3 hitting 10 million in sales while being difficult, narrative not being its content and marketing focus, and graphics not being top tier. Also the existence of all these 10 million+ sales Nintendo Switch games. A lot of indie games look great compared to the sidescrollers of 2009 and they often ooze style compared to realistic AAA games go for. On Steam there a bunch of games with single digit thousands to tens of thousands of user reviews and little to no reviews listed on OpenCritic/Metacritic. There's no lacking of options to need to accept mediocrity for the sake of sparkly graphics. And you can stay in your niche. The internet made it so you could be a part of a niche community and it be very active because it's people all over the world adding up to a lot rather than needing what you like to be shared with people at school/work/etc. You like JRPGs, then head to Steam or the Switch which both probably have hundreds of JRPGs from the classics to like a dozen no-solo dev but funded studio JRPGs a year. JRPG subreddit for community. Rouguelites or metroidvanias, got to be hundreds of those every year with at least a dozen or maybe dozens that are solidly fun to play. roguelite, roguelike, metroidvania subreddits
And to me the elephant in the room for AAA single player games being Genshin Impact and Honkai Star Rail and what looks to me an increasing amount of games that graphically look about as good as Genshin or better free to play single player gacha games. They can adjust patch by patch story elements to player feedback. Same with gameplay loops. Patch by patch try new game modes and combat styles of new characters. When playing multiplayer games, it's been for a while now a question of why spend money on a new game I don't know I'll like when I can spend money on DLC in a game I'm already playing and know I like? High budget single player gacha games are introducing that question to people that play single player games and give those gacha games a try whether on mobile, pc, or console. That is an additional advantage. They usually release mobile, PC, and console and people can easily play at school with the phone they usually always have or at work or on a bus, etc. Then at home play on a game console or PC with easier to use controls
Kotaro
Member
That Uk chart only track physical release, Wukong has no physical release. Even if you attribute 85-90% sales of the total sales to China, that leaves 2-3 million units sold in the rest of the world, which is far more than what Outlaws did
Stellar Blade did 1 million on ONE platform in the same timeframe as Outlaws. Stellar Blade is a success
and both are new IP, from new console developers
Keep coping, Go woke go broke
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mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Not really. Those graphic advancements helped, but some of these companies are just taking less risk with their AAA games. Scared to do SOMETHING! For example, Cory Borlog did one small thing (that was hard) with God of War 2018. He decided to do a one-shot camera with no edits through-out the whole game. That was innovative and the game was fun.
So no wonder GOW 2018 sold 23 million units as of 2 years ago. It looked great and felt great! Black Myth Wukong and Elden Ring did amazing too. All three of those games wanted to look and\or play differently. Most AAA games these days aren't being made like that.
March Climber
Member
And that last sentence circles back around to my point:
It is still a lottery system at the end of the day, and quite a few games that come out do what you ask of still have quite a big failure rate, especially if they're newer I.P. or newer developers. It's one of the many reasons why remakes and remasters have gone up in popularity.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
The bolded isn't real. Keep up.
Kotaro
Member
genesisblock
Member
I thought the whole point of Unreal Engine is to streamline development costs that would normally take a lot of manual work hours such as lighting and level design. Though, it seems it did nothing to stop the budget from rising astronomically and this isn't counting the debacle the woke developers have made.
Fbh
Member
Just sounds like a lazy sales pitch
"What we've seen is people are gravitating towards games that let them --- proceeds to describe everything you can do in Fortnite ---"
Which, I mean, to some extent is true given the massive popularity of the game.
I definitely also agree devs should keep their budgets in check, this ballooning cost of game development can't continue. The only reason games like Stellar Blade can be considered a success is because it probably made a profit at 1 million units sold instead of having to sell 4-5 to break even.
With the way prices are going what is the plan for the industry next gen? Make games that cost $500 million for a possibly smaller audience on new $700 consoles?
"What we've seen is people are gravitating towards games that let them --- proceeds to describe everything you can do in Fortnite ---"
Which, I mean, to some extent is true given the massive popularity of the game.
I definitely also agree devs should keep their budgets in check, this ballooning cost of game development can't continue. The only reason games like Stellar Blade can be considered a success is because it probably made a profit at 1 million units sold instead of having to sell 4-5 to break even.
With the way prices are going what is the plan for the industry next gen? Make games that cost $500 million for a possibly smaller audience on new $700 consoles?
Northeastmonk
Gold Member
Sounds like Tim only cares about the millions of kids playing Fortnite than anything else. I think what sucks is they’re trying to be in the #1 spot and that #1 spot isn’t appealing unless you’re 10 and you play Fortnite or Rocket League with your buddies.
ChorizoPicozo
Member
It's better than roblox I can tell you that
intheinbetween
Member
To some extent I agree with his statement, developing high budget titles is too risky nowadays, in order to break even or to be profitable these type of games need to sell probably quite some millions, so they need to find ways to recoup the investment by releasing on every platform, make a plan for future DLC to keep the game alive, and cut the fat when it comes to expenses in the budget, and be more selective when approving high budgeted titles, probably 1 single AAA every 2-3 years is enough, then invest on AA and other little releases.
On the other hand you have Nintendo, learn from them.
And no, I don’t agree DEI is the problem in the industry, the average Joe won’t buy DQ even it uses the gender or type of character selector, this is just about entertainment, but mostly enjoying video games, not your agenda
On the other hand you have Nintendo, learn from them.
And no, I don’t agree DEI is the problem in the industry, the average Joe won’t buy DQ even it uses the gender or type of character selector, this is just about entertainment, but mostly enjoying video games, not your agenda
Hero of Spielberg
Member
If you want a game with broad appeal then DEI is definitely a problem for ou as a developer.
For more traditional gaming experiences, successful developers understand that the vast majority of their target audience are male and design their games accordingly. Would your target audience prefer to play as a space marine blasting aliens/robots or would they prefer to play as a gender-fluid obese person making wisecracks. Do they want to play as the mythical monkey man or do they want to play as the the ugly girl boss?
If you're forcing agendas into your game you need to hit it out of the park so people just have t play it otherwise if people get a whiff of bullshit and it starts catching on, YouTubers start clowning it and it's game over ...
intheinbetween
Member
From my experience, unless politic agenda is noticable on a video games the average consumer doesn’t complain about actually in some cases is just merely just a marketing decision to make a video game popular with a current trend among consumers. However, if you create a good game it will sell just well whether it has a DEI approach or not.
Foamstars failed because of how bad is the game itself, as Balan which has no DEI elements, on the other hand you have Forsloken a AAA title clearly influenced by DEI and again, despite the team behind it it failed not because DEI but because the game itself is average at best.
Just a reminder, DEI is not related to sex gender, the color of the hair or politics, but any type of discrimination such as race, origin, age, etc
Hypereides
Gold Member
High budget =/= success. This is a creative and talent problem (read: braindrain) the industry has made for themselves. AAA has been riding the idea that high fidelity graphics would be their main selling point while sustaining the same old tired gameplay templates for over a decade. When your games are devoid of authentic, bold creativity or daring ideas, this is what you get. Same goes for trendchasing, there aren't any guarantees in that either.
The AAA industry used to be competitive in pushing new and exciting ideas. That excitement has largely evaporated in AAA.
The AAA industry used to be competitive in pushing new and exciting ideas. That excitement has largely evaporated in AAA.
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Generic
Member
This game only sold 1 million in 3 months. It did really poorly. Not a good example of "what consumers want".
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Hero of Spielberg
Member
I respectfully disagree. The average consumer (which in this case is a male) won't be drawn to the product the same way as something without a political agenda and is marketed specifically for them.
Of course there are games with no DEI that fail, like anything can fail. But if you are a new game (not riding the coattails of an existing IP or game) then if you go wth DEI you're starting off on the back foot.
Mr.Phoenix
Member
Even a 12yr old can tell them why, these overpaid idiots cant get a clue even if it slapped them in the face.
I don't know what audience they are making games for, but they are forcing DEI nonsense down people's throats, and for the life of me, I would never know who told them that was a good idea. Oh, and games now cost $70. I guess they are finding out that when people are asked to pay that much for a game, they expect more from said game. And who told these idiots that making a game open world = a good game?
Fuck around and find out I guess.
I don't know what audience they are making games for, but they are forcing DEI nonsense down people's throats, and for the life of me, I would never know who told them that was a good idea. Oh, and games now cost $70. I guess they are finding out that when people are asked to pay that much for a game, they expect more from said game. And who told these idiots that making a game open world = a good game?
Fuck around and find out I guess.
With all due respect, I don't know if you know how to count, but during a press conference regarding there IPO last June 25, Shift Up announced that it estimates the sales of Stellar Blade " is over 1 million copies" since its launch on April 26. I don't think that is three months.
The South Korean company considers the game successful based on its commercial performance. Generating good royalties that is what is important.
And Fyi over a millions means it is even a bigger number than 1 million.
To explain over :
Over a million is > 1,000,000
Under a million is < 1,000,000
Right now it possible it is a much bigger numbers because allot of gamers are just, recently, discovered how good the game was in terms of gameplay, combat, interesting story and lore and beautiful graphics, and it is not just because of beautiful protagonist.
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RetroGamingUK
Member
This is the biggest disappointment to me.
I’ve not heard any developers come out and saw how much life has been made easier for them by this.
genesisblock
Member
Indeed, which means it's not an issue of the engine but their unrealistic scope, lack of key talent and a clear direction as to why games have ballooned to unrealistic amounts. And it's not like it's making a significant difference to PS4 games like the jump from PS3.
klosos
Member
Just make good games for the Target audience, Who ever that Audience is ( Single player , Multiplayer etc ) thats all.
However there is so many games out there , most peoples backlog can last them years, so give me what i want or my money stays in my pocket. Its the same with Films as well. What i have learned from Covid i am more then happy watching older films and playing older games.
Id rather keep my money then play another generic open world game with RPG elements
However there is so many games out there , most peoples backlog can last them years, so give me what i want or my money stays in my pocket. Its the same with Films as well. What i have learned from Covid i am more then happy watching older films and playing older games.
Id rather keep my money then play another generic open world game with RPG elements
awwr999999
Member
It's funny that F2P games like Fortnite are universally allowed on consoles when they're in direct competition with console exclusives people have to spend money on to play.
At minimum, by virtue of being platform agnostic it's fueling the idea that modern consoles don't provide anything of value.
Every console allows Fortnite to exist as F2P because it brings them cash every month.
On every console 100% of that cash comes at the expense of money that's not being spent on traditional games and time not spent inside those games.
Some of those non-sales belonging to platform exclusive games that add to the overall appeal of the game console on which they're played.
Game consoles have delicate ecosystems made up of the games they offer and it's interesting that new monetization angles like F2P aren't scrutinized more.
This F2P game's making us a bundle - users can only play one game at a time - that money's not being spent on games that tie powerful user experiences to the console.
E.g. Users who payed money for TLOU on PS3 and the way they feel about PS3 vs users who spent more than the price of TLOU inside Fortnite on PS4 and how they feel about the PS4.
The unique way that F2P games make money from users leaves some percentage of them feeling taken advantage of and that negativity is likely attached to the console.
If nothing else, the opportunity cost and not playing games that build positive console sentiment makes F2P games more expensive than consoles might realize.
At minimum, by virtue of being platform agnostic it's fueling the idea that modern consoles don't provide anything of value.
Every console allows Fortnite to exist as F2P because it brings them cash every month.
On every console 100% of that cash comes at the expense of money that's not being spent on traditional games and time not spent inside those games.
Some of those non-sales belonging to platform exclusive games that add to the overall appeal of the game console on which they're played.
Game consoles have delicate ecosystems made up of the games they offer and it's interesting that new monetization angles like F2P aren't scrutinized more.
This F2P game's making us a bundle - users can only play one game at a time - that money's not being spent on games that tie powerful user experiences to the console.
E.g. Users who payed money for TLOU on PS3 and the way they feel about PS3 vs users who spent more than the price of TLOU inside Fortnite on PS4 and how they feel about the PS4.
The unique way that F2P games make money from users leaves some percentage of them feeling taken advantage of and that negativity is likely attached to the console.
If nothing else, the opportunity cost and not playing games that build positive console sentiment makes F2P games more expensive than consoles might realize.
intheinbetween
Member
It's ok to disagree, I appreciate and respect your opinion.
DEI is something really useful to include everyone with no discrimination based on criteria such as race, age, sex, etc.. so all of us have the same opportunities as any other when it comes to applying for jobs or everyone can feel represented or identified with certain characters in entertainment media such as videogames, movies, books, music, etc.. However DEI shouldn't alter the original idea of the creator of the content. It's a useful tool so none is left behind, however there are many examples of abusing of DEI simply because it's one of the current trends of the market (profit-seeking) so they want to attract new or more consumers.
What I wanted to say can be summarized into: no matter if DEI is involved in a game, if a game sucks DEI won't be the the root cause for that.
RPCGamer
Neophyte
Typically, you grow a games budget with it's audience through sequels etc. Now they drop 100+ million on a project and assume they'll see a return. We've seen enough break out hits in the indie space that show the triple A section up for this behavior. Not everything can or will get you GTA money, so triple A needs to stop assuming and pull back.
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Go_Ly_Dow
Member
-Too many games
-Lots of clone games now
-A few games make up most of the market
-Stupid budgets
-Long dev cycles
-Changing trend to online and GAAS
Couple that with many of the legendary devs from the 90s will be retired by the end of next gen, take what you can get!
There is a generational change coming and it will be awful! We're experiencing the beginning of it now.
-Lots of clone games now
-A few games make up most of the market
-Stupid budgets
-Long dev cycles
-Changing trend to online and GAAS
Couple that with many of the legendary devs from the 90s will be retired by the end of next gen, take what you can get!
There is a generational change coming and it will be awful! We're experiencing the beginning of it now.
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RetroGamingUK
Member
It’s not over at all
It’s clear the market for these F2P GaaS games is only so big and is unlikely to grow from here.
Yes it’s reduced the size of the gaming pie for narrative driven single player, but to think it’ll continue the way it has for the last 5 years is…
Look at all the other gaming trends that people thought would completely take over gaming…
A timeline of trend chasing and fads in gaming
So the below video popped up on my YouTube feed today and it got me thinking about all the gaming trends that have been and gone. While we’re, hopefully, living through the end of the live service era (I don’t think it’ll end entirely, but the gold rush is over) I thought it’d be interesting to...
dragonyeuw
Member
Asides from pushing the woke thing, I actually think there are too many games made now. And in this economy, people only have so much money to spend so good chance your game will fall through the cracks if it isn't genuinely great and/or offers great bang for buck. My most played game in the last 2 years is Vampire Survivor, a game I've probably paid $10 inclusive of DLC. Good luck getting me to part with $70.
Bert Big Balls
Member
I would have absolutely no problem if the game industry just went back to making stuff like the PS1 and PS2 games. I'm not talking about blocky pixelated shit, but similar styles of fun games made in modern game engines with all the physics and shit you can imagine. Astro Bot feels like going straight back to those days of playing stuff like Kula World, Crash Bandicoot, Pandemonium, Tomba etc. Sure, the games are probably a bit ass to play now, but they were fun with absolutely no bullshit whatsoever. The focus these days on ultra realistic graphics and spending 6 years on a game that bombs is just ridiculous.
RPCGamer
Neophyte
I think part of the problem is the big studios need x amount of revenue to support how big they've become. Smaller, lower budget titles can be profitable, but not enough to sustain them - the go big or go home approach. We are seeing massive layoffs in triple A as they fail to even maintain or grow what they have as a result.
Many of these big studios will face the choice of getting bought or dramatically downsizing to sustain themselves.
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FewRope
Member
For the traditional triple A everyone loves with massive marketing? Of course not, but I dont see smaller games, AA games or even indies, surviving the next decade. It's going to be a lot like the movie industry, full of Marvel blockbusters and the ocasional weird movie with good word of mouthIt’s not over at all
It’s clear the market for these F2P GaaS games is only so big and is unlikely to grow from here.
Yes it’s reduced the size of the gaming pie for narrative driven single player, but to think it’ll continue the way it has for the last 5 years is…
Look at all the other gaming trends that people thought would completely take over gaming…
A timeline of trend chasing and fads in gaming
So the below video popped up on my YouTube feed today and it got me thinking about all the gaming trends that have been and gone. While we’re, hopefully, living through the end of the live service era (I don’t think it’ll end entirely, but the gold rush is over) I thought it’d be interesting to...www.neogaf.com
dragonyeuw
Member
I never figured out why they just never went with 2-3 games for the price of 1 mega AAA. Odds are a couple land, maybe one doesn't, but you don't cripple the studio if your 250m 6 year project flops. That just seems like way too big a gamble. Somewhere along the way a memo went out across the industry to go big, bigger, biggest and noone saw that this was unsustainable? The AAA space literally had to cave in on itself.
Just in the last year I've completed stuff like the Plague Tale games and most recently Terminator Resistance and Robocop, which are considered AA titles and I can't say the experience was worse off than some of these AAAs coming out.
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vaibhavpisal
Member
Helldivers 2, Space Marine 2 etc
All AA titles outselling big budget SP titles.
I dont see how GAAS is not the future.
All AA titles outselling big budget SP titles.
I dont see how GAAS is not the future.
RPCGamer
Neophyte
Once upon a time, those games would have been seen as triple A too. The triple A side of the industry has just gotten completely out of hand and the high risk nature is hurting more and more. I'd gladly go back to smaller, shorter titles where games don't take 6 years to make. Sure, those games can still exist, but not every game needs to be that.
dragonyeuw
Member
As far as my experience goes they pretty much were. Plague Tale Requiem especially looks awesome and just long enough to not outstay its welcome( which I think is an issue with some of these bloated games). I personally think 10-20 hour games are perfect, as far as story based games go.
digoutyoursoul
Member
Average to mediocre games with high budgets are not selling
Nikodemos
Member
The single fundamental issue which intrinsically sabotages the GaaS concept is permanence.
Once a GaaS becomes established, it stays established, unless the devs go full retard and somehow manage to cataclysmically fuck it up. Doing a graphical makeover every 5 years keeps it fresh, and once the assembly line for seasonal content is up and running, the game will keep ticking.
And, once you have 6-7 established GaaS, there are no more rungs left on the ladder, since a day only has 24 hours, and the human brain can only process so much adenosine triphosphate in said interval.
That's not to say companies shouldn't try their hand at a GaaS. Just 1) for the love of Cthulhu, don't try to elbow in an area which is already close to saturation; your differentiator might turn out not be different enough; 2) keep initial budgets low, only pump them up if/when roots take hold.
Once a GaaS becomes established, it stays established, unless the devs go full retard and somehow manage to cataclysmically fuck it up. Doing a graphical makeover every 5 years keeps it fresh, and once the assembly line for seasonal content is up and running, the game will keep ticking.
And, once you have 6-7 established GaaS, there are no more rungs left on the ladder, since a day only has 24 hours, and the human brain can only process so much adenosine triphosphate in said interval.
That's not to say companies shouldn't try their hand at a GaaS. Just 1) for the love of Cthulhu, don't try to elbow in an area which is already close to saturation; your differentiator might turn out not be different enough; 2) keep initial budgets low, only pump them up if/when roots take hold.
TerribleAtThisGame
Member
I mean stop making fucking 50 hour one-and-done "experiences" for a billion dollars that you expect to sell 20mil copies of.
I wish they'd scale shit back, focus on gameplay innovation and fun and not repackage the same "experience" with flashier graphics over and over. Many massive successes prove that cutting edge graphics are irrelevant to players if the game is fun and unique.
I could be talking out of my ass but that's how it looks from my clearly elevated throne of keyboard warriordom.
I wish they'd scale shit back, focus on gameplay innovation and fun and not repackage the same "experience" with flashier graphics over and over. Many massive successes prove that cutting edge graphics are irrelevant to players if the game is fun and unique.
I could be talking out of my ass but that's how it looks from my clearly elevated throne of keyboard warriordom.
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