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[cireza]

wouldn't have the Mega Drive hardware that's the part you aren't getting.

So you cut the MD library entirely, looks like a genius move really.

And you would still need a VDP, AV out, controller ports etc...

 

[nkarafo]

MK1 is 2 MB, not one

True, i was going with the compressed rom number

 

[TheDreadLord]

Skyhammer shows what a Jag can do. Too bad it was past its commercial prime at that point.

This one is a pretty good game. The 3D graphics are actually pretty clean in motion and the framerate is not that bad. I’d say this game has graphics on pair of other early 3D games in the 3DO and PS1.

The Jaguar is one of the worst consoles of all time, and if I’m not mistaken, the hardware had a fault that developers had to work around, which potentially led to some of the shittiness exhibited.

AVP was alright, though.

Have you played the system? It actually has a few good games. Btw, silent Doom was the best console version of Doom for quite a long time.

Rest assured that once my Jaguar arrives, the first thing I will do is pack up one of the controllers and send it to an Ebay seller who can install the rotary dial. It's worth it just for Tempest 2000 (one of my all-time favorites), and it also works with the indie/homebrew title Rebooteroids. I'd love to see that rotary dial used for racing games, especially now that Atari ST games are being ported over (also, please port over Amiga games).

Even though Tempest 2k is super good with the d-pad, it is a whole new level with the rotary control. Rebooteroids is also very good with it. Gravity Mines (a 2022 release for the system) also supports it even though it plays better with a pro controller and its shoulder buttons.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

The 3DO port of Samurai Shodown is missing a lot of animation frames, not enough RAM for all the animation data and the sound is noticeably muffled. Even the PS1 ports of the first 2 Samurai games suffer from muffled audio. At the time Neo Geo was doing things that no other console could because they didn't have the hardware resources to run NG games properly. Even the NG CD by 1997 couldn't have 1:1 ports because 7 MB of RAM were not enough anymore.

And the whole "it's just a lot of MB in roms" wasn't trivial at all, in 2D games nobody was putting as much resources in development as SNK. By 1995 SNK was releasing games that wouldnt fit the CPS2 rom size limit and by the time they released Garou that game had more data than 32 bit Street Fighter 3 Third Strike despite having less characters.

Could Jaguar have an arcade accurate port of Samurai Shodown 1? Maybe. Could Atari release a 17 MB cartridge in 1994? Zero chances.

None of this is relevant, the Jaguar could run those games and has the capabilies beyond the Neo Geo to runt hose games, if the only argument you have is ROM size and RAM that doesn't refute the fact the Jaguar was a more capable 2D machine. Neo Geo was not as capable but had more RAM and large Rom sizes, that's the only advantage it had. You don't even need the same resources as the Neo Geo to play Samurai Showdown 2 as shown by later ports, unless it's being emulated. Neo Geo cart sizes are incredibly inflated and the disinterest n 2D later in the 90's prevented companies or SNK from using alternate solutions to porting their games, until several years later.

Samurai Showdown 1 is not an t3echnically impressive game in 1993.

According to this thread and the Jaguar support force (who knew) the NEO GEO is now crap 2D because it uses big ROM sizes and added nothing new in the 2D space?

That's a good summary for people who like to make shit up and lie about what was said I guess.

According to this thread and the Jaguar support force (who knew) the NEO GEO is now crap 2D because it uses big ROM sizes and added nothing new in the 2D space?. But the Jaguar is supposedly this holy grail of 2D abilities in 1993 and brought something new to the table? Are we really comparing the Jaguar hardware to 2D arcade boards like NEO GEO, CPS2, Midway Units and whatever Taito system was in play?

If you compare 1993 home consoles maybe?, but even modern games made on Genesis with huge carts seem pretty impressive today and just show how far those systems can be pushed. But wait, adding bigger ROMS is not good and brings nothing new to the table. The 3D0 certainly gave 2D a fair crack but was held back by CD media and RAM limitations. Hey guess what, so was and would the Jaguar be held back too. I don't recall the Jaguar doing much in the vein of Samurai Showdown or Street Fighter 2, both very nice looking ports for CD media games.

Ray Man is nice and might be the best 2D the Jaguar system can do, or did.

Super Burnout has fast 60fps scaling which is more impressive than a standard 2D platformer with smooth animations and a high color count.

You just don't understand how these things work Blazing Star is a great example, developers found a way to put in FMV animations and video or similar into the game, great prerendered graphics, they found ways to add more to ROM and take advantage of the Neo Geo memory to make a better space shooter than the ones from the early 90's, but it's still not different than those as it's core, and nothing on the Neo Geo itself is improved and has the same limitations.

People are confusing visual style with 2D capabilities and this is hole you're trapped in, you can't separate the two.

I agree that the Jaguar is a more powerful 2D hardware. It does scaling, has higher resolution and all that fluff. But that means nothing if you don't have enough space to store 2D assets. 2D graphics need space.

Well you understand the hardware is better, but for some reason you think that the Jaguar needs massive roms to prove it has better harde? Half the gifs in the OP already prove that the Jaguar was more capable than the Neo Geo with 4MB cartridges. Yes, for some gnres like fighting games the rom size would be an issue, but a game like Super Burnout or some of the other games dind't need more than a 4MB cart.

Yes, if the Jaguar wanted a proof of Art of Fighting thing it would need a much bigger cartridge, but for platformers, racing games, and games with scaling sprites that's not really necessary.

Neo Geo has some great fighting games in later years and no one denies that but they aren't adding capabilities to the neo geo that it didn't already have, it's just the developers learning and taking better advantage of existing Neo Geo technology aided by large ROM

The 3D0 certainly gave 2D a fair crack but was held back by CD media and RAM limitations. Hey guess what, so was and would the Jaguar be held back too. I don't recall the Jaguar doing much in the vein of Samurai Showdown or Street Fighter 2, both very nice looking ports for CD media games.

Jaguar didn't use CD, that was an optional accessory later.

This blaming CD media thing is also poorly thought out. the 3DO had an internal scaler harming its performance by forcing games to 480I unless you went in and forced 240P or had a japanese consoles with a switch. The 3DO processor was also incredibly slow, which combined with the internal scaler problem led to very choppy performance for more complex 3D games, some developers were able to manage solid 25fps games sometimes 30fps but it wasn't uncommon to see games in the teens, with some quick drops temporarily to the single digits, and there are some badly optimized Japanese games, like this one FPS I forget the name of where you play as an android, that had you moving in the single digits the entire game. \

Considering how fast 2D games generally were before that generation of 3D focused consoles, both of these issues contributed to problems with 3DO's 2D games, Gex is 30fps albeit smooth, SSFIIX is missing some parallax, Sam Sho is 30fps, Eye of Typhon can dip in the teens, I have no idea how low Sailor Moon and Yu Yu are running, the 3DO was not meant to be a 2D machine with capabilities beyond the last generation like the Jaguar and the Saturn, it was meant to be a 3D console with Audio and Video capabilities that were far beyond what was done before. More Ram wouldn't help with 2D in 3Do's case, 3D yes, 2D no. Has nothing to do with CD media..

Now Rayman is an interesting case. I think it looks better than any Neo Geo game, despite being on a tiny cart. But if you look at it more carefully, you will see how the game is optimized in such way. The biggest factor is the animations. In any other 2D game you need many different sprites to depict different animations. In most cases, the whole sprite needs to be redrawn in a different position for every frame, just like any cartoon. But Rayman skips that with it's "limbless" system. To animate a punch, Rayman only needs to throw his floating fist really fast. That's it. No extra animations are needed. Just the move the floating hand sprite really fast and maybe change it to depict a fist. All sprites in this game work like that and have very few actual frames of animation. That saves a lot of space to draw the impressive and detailed environments and everything else.

Rayman would still have problems running on the Neo Geo despite the animations, the sprites are large, detailed, and colorful and can move on screen smoothly, it can handle many moving objects on screen just as large, especially in chaotic moments which also contain enemies and swinging things and a moving rock platform.

It's a shame that Atari focused so much on 3D they couldn't handle, it would have been great to see those later 2D sprite arcade games from Namco, Atari, an Konami on the system.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

This one is a pretty good game. The 3D graphics are actually pretty clean in motion and the framerate is not that bad. I’d say this game has graphics on pair of other early 3D games in the 3DO and PS1.

I think people who say this forgot what early 3DO and PS1 games looked like. Not knocking on the game it's impressive but this isn't Ridge Racer.

Kasumi Ninja is another good example, which has already been discussed in this thread. Some portions of the graphics do look very nice, matching or exceeding the best 2D fighting games of the time with its high color palette and good use of parallax scrolling. But the art direction just wasn't there, and the fighting engine was crude and simplistic. The 3D character selection sequence seemed to be tossed in randomly just to give it some element of "3D-ness" to differentiate it from other fighting games, but it looks tacky now.

You have to remember this is the 90's too so many games artsyles even on PS1 and 3DO have aged badly or looked cheesy even back then because they went with some very peculiar artstyles in games. That's why the Jaguars 2D games in most cases look better outside Kasumi Ninja because they use more common, simple artsyles.

The CD32 could have been profitable (if marginally so) had it not been for Commodore getting struck down by that patent troll. (And also for their execs not being greedy meatheads.)

Could it? The CD32 had to cancel releases because they couldn't afford to make enough consoles to send to other countries advertised including the US, and from what I've seen it seems they knew that was going to happen, so what was the point of even releasing the CD32?

 

[CobraAB]

Well it did get a CD addon and it made things worse.

Ah yes, the toilet set add-on. I had a Jaguar. I like it.was always an Atari fan. Did not get the CD though.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

So you cut the MD library entirely, looks like a genius move really.

And you would still need a VDP, AV out, controller ports etc...

Why are you pretending there weren't a bunch of enhanced MD Sega CD games?

a 1X drive CD console with hardware better than a 1987 developed Mega Drive would be pretty easy to do, and would become dirt cheap really quick.

I don't buy the "lose the MD library" excuse either, when the people using the Sega CD seemed to use it as a standalone anyway, and when the excitement dried up it's not like we saw a bump in MD software sales. You also had ports of favorites on the Sega CD anyway so you could have had more of those and just positioned the Sega CD as a premium systems with FMV and CD audience and better sprite capabilities.

The bad idea was always forcing someone to buy a Genesis to also buy a CD, even NEC figured that out. Prevented the sales decline of the ADD on and even had a CD only standalone because they knew that people wanted the CD without the hassle.

 

[nkarafo]

Rayman would still have problems running on the Neo Geo despite the animations, the sprites are large, detailed, and colorful and can move on screen smoothly, it can handle many moving objects on screen just as large, especially in chaotic moments which also contain enemies and swinging things and a moving rock platform.

Rayman looks great but i don't think the Neo-Geo wouldn't handle it. If it could handle Metal Slug 3, it could handle Rayman.

 

[eNT1TY]

There is absolute wishful revisionist recollection of Jaguars 2d capabilities going on here. Also Rayman in no way was superior to the PS1 version. The Jaguar version most of the time is missing up to 3 layers of parallax scrolling elements with some stages on ps5 having 5 layers compared to 2 on Jaguars with much less frequency of foreground layer passes. On like for like scenes the ps1 version has even improved litter assets and flourishes missing on jaguar like fern and giant fungi stacks. There are no transparency elements on jaguar and atmospheric fog is fully absent. Color palette is in no way shape or form better on jaguar. It has visible dithering on vines, leaves, and foreground objects while ps1 displays smoother gradations on the same elements. The cloudy skies on jaguar have more aggressive banding than the smoother gradation. Rayman is still a good looking game on Jaguar but it is not superior. He'll it gets left behind the moment both intro's start. I'm not even going to touch on how Kasumi Ninja actually measures up MK when some of it's characters are Pit Fighter tier.

 

[cireza]

when the people using the Sega CD seemed to use it as a standalone anyway,

This never happened though. Both MD and SEGA CD were well supported up to 1996, no reason to skip MD games because you had a SEGA CD. I know no one who has a SEGA CD and did this. They kept buying games of both formats, as this was precisely how it was planned by SEGA to begin with.

The SEGA CD was never meant to be a budget offering. It was a premium console for people wanting something different and premium ports.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

Rayman looks great but i don't think the Neo-Geo wouldn't handle it. If it could handle Metal Slug 3, it could handle Rayman.

Metal Slug 3 doesn't have the clarity, size, or the smoothness of Rayman, the background objects, the moving platforms, or the enemies. Metal Slug can handle many things on screen (some of which looks compressed for those explosion effects but It could just be artstyle) but those sprites aren't much more advanced than what the Neo Geo did with other games furing that wave, Metal Slug sprites aren't as detailed, or vibrant as the bigger objects and enemies in Rayman, it's nowhere near as colorful, and the sprites are more pixelated and have restrictions Rayman doesn't have.

It is also important to note that iirc ALL the Meta Slug games on the Neo Geo are 30fps. Rayman with everything above runs at 60fps.

However unlike other 30fps Neo geo games, or games with choppy frame rates or slowdown, Metal Slug does a good job trying to hide that it's 30FPS although there are several signs of it.

There is absolute wishful revisionist recollection of Jaguars 2d capabilities going on here. Also Rayman in no way was superior to the PS1 version. The Jaguar version most of the time is missing up to 3 layers of parallax scrolling elements with some stages on ps5 having 5 layers compared to 2 on Jaguars with much less frequency of foreground layer passes.

You do realize that Rayman was made on the Jaguar first right? Some of what you say is "missing" was added to the PS1 version later and taking advantage of the disc storage not the PS1 having better 2D (similar to Neo Geo massive ROM size). But you ignore what's missing from the PS1 version and act like it has everything the Jag version does which is wrong. Also PS5? And where's the foreground in the PS1 version?

ps1 version has even improved litter assets and flourishes missing on jaguar like fern and giant fungi stacks.

If you are talking about stage elements like the butterflys and dancing flowers etc the PS1 actually had many of those missing in several stages or reduced compared to the Jaguar version than they added, and also as i said above, is missing the foreground in several levels..

Of course Rayman isn't the most impressive 2D game showing off the 2D capabilities of the jaguar, but it's generally concluded the jaguar version is better than the PS1 version in 2D. As a game however, people generally prefer the PS1 version more because for one it's more accessible, 2nd, CD audio, 3rd more disc space for video and other additions (and removals) that they are used to considering Rayman sold millions on the PS1 and less than AVP on the Jaguar as shown in the chart on the previous page. But none of that has anything to do with PS1 having better 2D than the jaguar (It doesn't). Rayman also makes the PS1 look bad because most of Rayman is made on the Jaguar using the 68000. If the PS1 had better 2D capabilities there shouldn't even be a comparison, and because Rayman mostly uses the 68000 it's not even a great example of the jaguars 2D, so the PS1 ends up looking pretty bad here.

But let me be clear, while I say the jaguar had better 2D CAPABILITIES than the Playstation, I'm not saying it's a blow out but rather a moderate lead.

Sony may not have had as some people call "Real Sprites" but it had enough brute force to still compete in 2D in many areas with Jag and Saturn, even if the 2D didn't have the best image quality. The PS1 can use it's power and CD storage to place more sprites on the screen with a bunch of animations everywhere, where you'd half to cut that in half for the jaguar, but that's something that's due to storage size, not 2D capability.

There were some problems that crop up when you try anything complex with 2D on the PS1 from hardware

This is Night Striker, a basic scaling arcade shooter conversion. The small gif actually makes the game look a bit better than it actually plays, but the Playstation port of this game is cuts the frame rate by half and at times lower than the Arcade, and Saturn, versions of the game, there are less sprites on screen at once, and even then there can be dips, and the draw distance got reduced. You may also notice that there really isn't a "ground" outside of the road, and the buildings are popping up smudged and compressed single file. What's most imprtant here is this is the best looking stage in the game for showing off the graphical capabilities and sprites on screen, as the other stages either don't have buildings, or they seem to be less grand in scale.

Super Burnout on the Jaguar, 60fps with numerous sprites on the screen and an illusion of depth on the hills. Runs very smooth, no hiccups in the frame rate, the sprites are large colorful and vibrant in multiple sizes and scale quickly. There are also other racers that move just as smoothly.

I'm not sure the PSX could handle Super Burnout, at least not without downgrading the sprites and aiming for 30fps. It's funny how games that may seem simple are actually a bit more impressive when observed more closely. The Jaguar could do better though, but we don't have many officially released games to work with on that, as Atari focused much more on 3D they couldn't achieve than 2D they could.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

This never happened though. Both MD and SEGA CD were well supported up to 1996, no reason to skip MD games because you had a SEGA CD. I know no one who has a SEGA CD and did this. They kept buying games of both formats, as this was precisely how it was planned by SEGA to begin with.

The SEGA CD was never meant to be a budget offering. It was a premium console for people wanting something different and premium ports.

it was only premium because it was chained to the Mega Drive which made making the hardware costly because they had to make the Sega CD with that in mind. A Megadrive matching standalone Sega CD hardware would be cheaper in 1992 than the Sega CD add on. We even saw this same thing with NEC.

I never said the Sega CD was a budget offering either, in fact I said the exact opposite this entire time, that it should have been the premium consoles, and once it got close to $99, the Genesis would be replaced and the Saturn would become the new premium.

 

[cireza]

once it got close to $99

Which it would have never reached.

 

[Redneckerz]

And the poor Jaguar is screaming in agony running that game, but yes that is the peak complete 3D game for the Jaguar and the only thing I've seen better is that Flying Dragon demo for an unreleased game that ran at 4fps.

i'd love to see that Flying Dragon demo, but Skyhammer does show the Jaguar is more than capable of 3D. Towers II also comes to mind.

It does play the part that at best, we are talking early PS1/3DO levels of visuals here. Late PS1 games became really refined and almost look filtered but don't have hardware filtering. Skyhammer is typical 1995/1996 3D - No surprise, it was ought to release at that time, but got cancelled.

This one is a pretty good game. The 3D graphics are actually pretty clean in motion and the framerate is not that bad. I’d say this game has graphics on pair of other early 3D games in the 3DO and PS1.

Pretty much. It highlights that Jaguar was a capable 3D system, but in the right hands. It definitely takes some high level coding to get this stuff running.

I think people who say this forgot what early 3DO and PS1 games looked like. Not knocking on the game it's impressive but this isn't Ridge Racer.

And its a far cry from System 22 based Ridge Racer at 640x480 60 fps filtered in 1993. Jaguar is more looking at the past with 3D features bolted on top, whereas PS1 is more looking into the future and has a graphics processor to show for it.

Could it? The CD32 had to cancel releases because they couldn't afford to make enough consoles to send to other countries advertised including the US, and from what I've seen it seems they knew that was going to happen, so what was the point of even releasing the CD32

In the aftermarket it is a fantastic system. You can burn all your games to it, some games can be made CD32 compatible with some clever hacking, in that sense it feels like an OG Xbox, its just versatile. No match for a PSX, but i'd love to see Trapped 2 run on it. It looks like a PlayStation game, but can run on CD32 hardware with a RAM expansion.

 

[Rob_27]

I miss mine and avp.

 

[nkarafo]

Super Burnout on the Jaguar, 60fps with numerous sprites on the screen and an illusion of depth on the hills. Runs very smooth, no hiccups in the frame rate, the sprites are large colorful and vibrant in multiple sizes and scale quickly. There are also other racers that move just as smoothly.

Super Burnout looks worse than Outrun on Saturn. And it's not just the art direction, the number of sprites that get scaled are many more in Outrun, for instance, there are many areas covered with countless grass sprites, along with all the other environment sprites. Super Burnout has a very flat looking ground with no grass or other details. Outrun also has traffic while Burnout is completely barren.

I never thought of Super Burnout as a good looking sprite scaling game, at all. It looks like something the 32X would handle.

I think you are overestimating the Jaguar's capabilities too much. It's very capable but i think it's somewhere between the 32X and Saturn when it comes to 2D.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

Which it would have never reached.

Yes it would have, a standalone Sega CD isn't going to outprice a PC Engine CD standalone.

i'd love to see that Flying Dragon demo,

Here you go

It does play the part that at best, we are talking early PS1/3DO levels of visuals here.

Which would be Need For Speed an Ridge Racer, I don't see Sky Hammer really competing with either, that goes for other early games that aren't spite games with polygons scattered around. Maybe early flight sims by small name devs.

Super Burnout looks worse than Outrun on Saturn. And it's not just the art direction, the number of sprites that get scaled are many more in Outrun,

And yet the Outrun arcade machine would not be able to handle Super Burnout just on the actual sprites alone. A subjective opinion on looks is pointless here, Trevor Mcfur despite looking like crap was actually a decent early tech demo for the Jaguar.

The number of Sprites may be more (and keep in mind SB wasn't made with the same budget or staff as outrun) but what was there "more of? Worse spites that were not as big or detailed, or vibrant, or uncompressed, or colorful, and all that was at 60fps with depth levels. Meanwhile Outrun along with the difference mentioned runs at 30fps in the arcade. However, the Saturn version mostly fixes that, but regardless Outrun was well outdated by 1994 you didn't need much to run a game like that, 3DO (30FPS) and PS1 (60fps) could easily handle a dinosaur like that, the former runs 2D games at the arcades frame rate anyway.

Also Burnout isn't barren, it's just that as you can see, player is way out in first place. You can have several cycles all run just as smooth on screen at the same time, even wiping out on the sides, and nothing drops.

I think you are overestimating the Jaguar's capabilities too much. It's very capable but i think it's somewhere between the 32X and Saturn when it comes to 2D.

32X cannot handle Super Burnout, but I also don't get what your point is here, the PS1 is between those two consoles, and that's the only console I put the Jag ahead of before the Saturn, I never said anything about the Jag being a match or better than the Saturn so I do not understand how I am "overestimating" the jaguars 2D capabilities, you're basically putting it in the same spot I am except for some reason you think the 32X can handle 2D more than it can forgetting it's chained to the MD.

Saturn>Jag>PS1>Neo-Geo>3DO 240p>SNES>32X/MD>3DO 480i is the order for 2D capability. Not artstyle.

 

[cartman414]

I think people who say this forgot what early 3DO and PS1 games looked like. Not knocking on the game it's impressive but this isn't Ridge Racer.



You have to remember this is the 90's too so many games artsyles even on PS1 and 3DO have aged badly or looked cheesy even back then because they went with some very peculiar artstyles in games. That's why the Jaguars 2D games in most cases look better outside Kasumi Ninja because they use more common, simple artsyles.



Could it? The CD32 had to cancel releases because they couldn't afford to make enough consoles to send to other countries advertised including the US, and from what I've seen it seems they knew that was going to happen, so what was the point of even releasing the CD32?

They had to cancel the US release only after Commodore was struck down by the $10 million patent lawsuit, withholding all NA bound consoles. I don't know how it would have done there, but it was doing very well in Europe.

 

[cireza]

Saturn>Jag>PS1>Neo-Geo>3DO

PS1 cannot run a ton of Neo Geo games. This console streams from ROMs as if it was RAM. This is impossible on any disc based consoles.

Same problem with Saturn, even though the RAM cart helps mitigate the issue, games that stream a lot will simply not run on the console. Even the Neo Geo CD had issues with its 7 MB of RAM. Art of Fighting 3 is largely downscaled, and a game like KoF 2K3 could have never made it.

This cannot be summarized as one console being better than the other, but various strengths and weaknesses, as usual.

 

[nkarafo]

but I also don't get what your point is here, the PS1 is between those two consoles, and that's the only console I put the Jag ahead of before the Saturn, I never said anything about the Jag being a match or better than the Saturn so I do not understand how I am "overestimating" the jaguars 2D capabilities, you're basically putting it in the same spot I am except for some reason you think the 32X can handle 2D more than it can forgetting it's chained to the MD.

Saturn>Jag>PS1>Neo-Geo>3DO 240p>SNES>32X/MD>3DO 480i is the order for 2D capability. Not artstyle.

Maybe i should have said you underestimate the Neo-Geo then. And the PS1 as well.

Also, your Rayman PS1 vs Jaguar comparison is off. PS1 seems better, with more background parallax layers, more detailed foreground and some extra effects like transparencies/haze/fog.




The only thing the Jaguar version has going on for it is an extra foreground layer which is removed from the later PS1 levels but it does exist in first stage. But the Jaguar version only has a single background parallax layer in all levels.

I wouldn't place the PS1 below the Jaguar. Or the 32X/MD below the SNES.

BTW, here's Lomax on the PS1. Looks even better than Rayman with a lot more visual stuff going on.

 

[Havoc2049]

Only the Atari Jaguar version of Rayman has the Rayman Breakout mini-game.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

They had to cancel the US release only after Commodore was struck down by the $10 million patent lawsuit, withholding all NA bound consoles. I don't know how it would have done there, but it was doing very well in Europe.

yeah but they couldn't make more consoles for Europe before that lawsuit came down for the NA stock. So even if that didn't happen how much more money would they have made from the small shipment of US consoles? They then would have to waste money on ads and marketing.

Also, your Rayman PS1 vs Jaguar comparison is off.

No it's not, you didn't refute a single thing I said.

Parralax and some extra effects like transparencies/haze/fog.

You mean things that can't be added in a game that was originally made for a 3MB (for the game) cartridge?

BTW, here's Lomax on the PS1. Looks even better than Rayman with a lot more visual stuff going on.

It also clearly shows elements that require a 650MB CD storage to do (especially the background). None of this proves that the PS1 had better 2D in the Jaguar, it proves what you can do with decent hardware for 2D combined with large storage sizes.

For example:



Rayman for the Jaguar is 4MB (3MB for the actual game) and it has better image quality more colorful sprites, faster gameplay, with a bunch of stuff on the screen no dips (Rayman dips in many places on PS1, I think it even dips in the band land stage with the big red guys and they only show up on screen one at a time)

It's faster and smoother than the PS1 version played on hardware.
It has double the colors and is at a higher resolution
It also has better scrolling.

The PlayStation version is missing an animated intro to every stage which changes based on where you are in the jaguar version, the "action" text that is smoothly animated as the stage starts. This is replaced in the PS1 version. The PS1 version is also missing animation frames for Rayman and some enemies, Rayman has a different idle animation, has more frames when attacking, and more frames in other specialized animations later in the game on the Jaguar version.

Even the silly little spin Rayman does when he completes a level at that sign is missing frames in the PS1 version. Considering the game is on a CD with the PS1 which has at least 650MB of storage, this doesn't make sense unless the developers were having trouble keeping the game running consistently with the extra frames and removed them on purpose. Also repeating again, the PS1 version has slowdown and frame dips in many parts of the game in every world at some point.

Another little difference to note is that when you get to the fairy who gives you your powers in between stages, the PS1 version drops you into the area, while the Jaguar version gradually smoothly scrolls the screen to the right. While there are some stage objects/litter missing in both versions compared to the other, it seems like there's more missing from the PS1 version than the Jaguar version, despite having a lot more space to add stuff, like how parts of levels in the Jag version are missing but they aren't actually missing they were added in for the P1 version, but that's because of storage space, not because of 2D capability, so the fact the Jaguar seems to have all these advantages in littler, and frames of animation being in a 3MB cart, means that the issue is with the PlayStation, not the storage. Much of what I say is observable in the video, some of which will require you to look at a walkthrough of other stages, but a quick skim will show that these disadvantageous are numerous tor the PS1 version. Even though it's on a 650MB disc or maybe even 700MB at that point vs. a 3MB cartridge.

Rayman isn't even the most impressive 2D game on the Jaguar and runs mostly on the 68000. The combined power of the PS1's chipset should make one think it's could do better but it's clear that it runs into problems with 2D gaming. The fact that the Saturn version of Rayman either doesn't have some of these problems or reduced them also makes it apparent that the problem is with the PS1.

Here is an example you skipped over, of the PlayStation trying to use 2D scaling in an arcade conversion, and we are talking about a very by the numbers scaling game that isn't complex.

Less sprites on screen lacking smooth movement (look at how badly those blue helicopters "chop" in) unlike the arcade and Saturn versions. 30FPS with dips, including the bullets, poor draw distance, low resolution graphics, and less buildings generated. You can even see the scrolling chug ff you pay attention to the road and the bridge, even the enemies seem to struggle moving around. Compare to the Saturn version

This game is rather simple and isn't pushing the Saturn hardware much, so it's no surprise the Saturn easily runs the game with more enemies, smooth movement, everything animates faster, better draw distance, and better graphical fidelity. Although it's still a rather empty track without many sprites on the screen and low res buildings, it pretty alarming that the PS1 has trouble handling a basic 2D sprite scaling game such as this one. The game is called Night Striker.


Super Burnout on the Jaguar on the other hand.

60FPS
Sprites scale blazing fast no matter where on screen in high quantity.
Day night cycle.
Sense of depth
Milky smooth animation
Even the hud is smooth
Animation and Parallax in the background/Sky.
Good draw distance for this type of game
High res graphics
No dips with multiple riders on screen

I guarantee you the PS1 can't handle this game if it can't even handle a basic arcade conversion of a simple scaler title that that Saturn can easily run with more objects and animation at 60fps with better draw distance.


BTW, unlike Rayman which is in a 4MB cart (3MB for the game) which shows how impressive the game is despite such a low size. Super Burnout is on a 2MB cart and the game is less than that. An even more impressive feat, I wonder what they could have done with a 60MB cart.

PS1 cannot run a ton of Neo Geo games. This console streams from ROMs as if it was RAM. This is impossible on any disc based consoles.

Because of the ROM size, which works well with the Neo Geo memory set up, however, something like Mark of Wolves not running on a PS1 doesn't mean the PS1 couldn't handle the game. Large sprites and backgrounds among many other things can be stored and quickly loaded in. but that has nothing to do with the Neo Geo limitations in sprite capability. As bad as the PS1 runs the example above, Night Striker on PS1 uses techniques the Neo Geo can't do that requires hardware the Neo Geo both doesn't have, and doesn't address Neo Geo's built in limitations that would prevent it from being able to do so even if it had the hardware (like not being able to actually scale sprites, but can only shrink sprites and restore to normal size.) which demonstrates the PS1 has hardware that allows for more advanced 2D features & capabilities than the Neo geo.

This is no different than the Jaguar vs. the PS1 in 3D, while Jag has some advantages poor and buggy hardware aside, the PS1 clearly had the better 3D capabilities than the jaguar, whatever advantages the Jaguar may have had over the PS1 in 3D, doesn't mean that the Jaguar is more powerful, and we know that the polygons generated, the detail, the texture mapping, the effects, are all in the PS1's favor,

It's the same thing with the PS1 and the Neo Geo. At the end of the day does Mark of Wolves show a technical improvement over a fighting game from 5 years earlier on the Neo Geo? Not really. It's still within the limitations of the console, just that they now have gotten used to developing games with the ROM/RAM combo, they now store more animations and more in the cartridges, they use a 32-bit VISUAL artstyle. But it's not doing anything the PS1 can't do outside it's small advantage, the Neo Geo can't do half the techniques the PS1 can do with sprites, nor can it scale anywhere near what the PS1 can do, and compared to the Jag and the Saturn, the PS1 does it badly, but the Neo geo can't do it at all.

It's not scaling, it's not rotating, it's not adding a bunch of effects, it's not increasing the detail or the res, it's not distorting or waving anything around, etc.

Blazing Star looks fantastic


Much better visually than Andros Dunos


What is it doing different for sprites than Andros Dunos?

Nothing.

What's pushing the Neo Geo hardware with Blazing Star is overstuffing the ROM and memory with all the cool visuals, effects, and FMV. That stripped away there's almost no real difference between the games outside gameplay features and menus. There's just more pork on top with Blazing Star than Andros Duos.

When you have consoles that don't need a lot of ram because they were targeting 2D of 1994 or were focusing more on 3D, which doesn't need a lot of ram, of course they are going to have trouble handling later Neo Geo titles without a memory expansion, or an upgrade to their hardware for sprite support to reduce the amount of pork they can take.

This is why blaming the CD drive is futile for these consoles specifically, because the Saturn's issue with certain titles like removed frames of animation has nothing to do with the CD drive, the Saturn has better 2D capabilities than the Neo Geo, however, the Saturn was designed to play games better than the MD/SNES and certain arcades of the time, and having games that were more impressive than those for the time were enough.

Sega wasn't predicting that there would be Neo Geo games looking like Blazing Star or KOF 98 in 5 years when they were developing the Saturn, they were at most thinking 2 years ahead especially once they took a turn toward focusing on 3D more and seeing 3D as the future, 2D games in 5 years wasn't even a topic of interest at Sega. So while the Saturn was more capable with sprites, the Saturn wasn't made with the consideration of 2D storing a bunch of pork in storage or the ram requirement to execute them. Most 2D games on the Saturn or Jag blow the other consoles and some arcades from before out the water 5:1 already and they got better overtime, same with the PS1.

The Neo Geo was specifically designed for the few styles of games it was built for within its limitations, and was meant to be a powerful system that would last a long time. The early games already blew away all consoles and computers and most 2D arcades in 1990, and SNK knew what they built and how games would handle it's architecture better and better year by year. There were already big improvements with games in 1992 compared to 1991. The only things SNK didn't account for was lower than expected adoption and expense which didn't really go down overtime, which led to their bankruptcy, with a failed portable console endeavor contributing to that.

Even the Neo Geo CD had issues with its 7 MB of RAM.

This cannot be summarized as one console being better than the other, but various strengths and weaknesses, as usual.

The Neo Geo CD was poorly built with it's own issues and has a 1X single speed disc drive. Not the best example.

Also it's clear consoles are better than the other, Neo Geo had limitations, it's sprite capabilities were not better than the Saturn, Jag, or the PS1. The PS1 was the worst of the 3 consoles for 2D but it still could do things the Neo Geo flat out could not do. Anything that the Neo Geo could do that had problems on the PS1 had nothing to do with the Neo geo having better 2D capabilities, it had to do with ROM and RAM. Granted, the PS1's had a lower ceiling than the other two due to a worse environment for sprites, which were technically as some would say "not real sprites" but that's another discussion. But the games the Neo Geo couldn't do that were played on the PS1 was not due to ROM and RAM, it was directly due to limitations of the hardware for 2D. no matter how much pork you stuff in ROM you aren't having a game like Night Striker on the Neo Geo and that's a basic scaler.

 

[nkarafo]

Lomax is more impressive than anything the Jaguar has done IMO. More detail, more effects, more layers of parallax, more animation frames, etc. You probably didn't even bother to watch the video.

Also those gifs of burnout are not 60fps. Post a proper 60fps gif or video so we don't have to search for ourselves.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

Only the Atari Jaguar version of Rayman has the Rayman Breakout mini-game.

Fun fact, while the Saturn, PC, and PS1 version don't have this mini game, the educational Rayman game released for PC does use that upside down animation. I don't think that it's done other than to just show it off, since you can't actually use it during gameplay. There was an educational game on the PS1 too but I don't think it used that animation, never played that one though.

Lomax is more impressive than anything the Jaguar has done IMO. More detail, more effects, more layers of parallax, more animation frames, etc. You probably didn't even bother to watch the video.

I did watch the video and have also played the game in the past, the speed of which you replied indicates you didn't read my post. You are ignoring storage size, and ignoring the advantages Rayman had over the PS1 version by trying to shift to another game. Then ignoring storage size again.

This is also twice you have avoided me bringing up Night Striker which unlike lomax is not a standard platformer and is a more complex 2D sprite game. At best this is a bad faith reply.

 

[nkarafo]

Nah, sprite scalling games are not the same as platforms, etc. The Neo-Geo is pretty bad at sprite scalling too. The Jaguar is probably the best at this after the Saturn ofc.

Whenever something looks better on any other console its "storage" related, but when something looks better on the Jaguar its "capabilities". Since when special effects and transpatencies are storage intensive? Im not the one arguing in bad faith here.

You also forget that Rayman was made with the Jaguar in mind, all the other versions are ports. Ports are not the best way to see a machine's full capabilities. Lomax was made with the PS1 in mind and looks better than Rayman. That's how to me it looks like the PS1 might be better at 2D in general but not so much at sprite scalling.

 

[eNT1TY]

Ps1 also trounces Jaguar visually in NBA Jam with much larger character sprites, more frames of animation per character, better crowd animation, and a bigger color palette. The Jaguar is competing (favorably) with the the 32x version while the PS1 version trades blows with the Saturn one.

 

[cireza]

Because of the ROM size, which works well with the Neo Geo memory set up, however, something like Mark of Wolves not running on a PS1 doesn't mean the PS1 couldn't handle the game. Large sprites and backgrounds among many other things can be stored and quickly loaded in. but that has nothing to do with the Neo Geo limitations in sprite capability. As bad as the PS1 runs the example above, Night Striker on PS1 uses techniques the Neo Geo can't do that requires hardware the Neo Geo both doesn't have, and doesn't address Neo Geo's built in limitations that would prevent it from being able to do so even if it had the hardware (like not being able to actually scale sprites, but can only shrink sprites and restore to normal size.) which demonstrates the PS1 has hardware that allows for more advance

It doesn't demonstrate anything as Neo Geo does things PS1 cannot and vice versa. You want to make a stupid classification so hard that you lose common sense.

It's not scaling

For your information Neo Geo is hardware capable of dezooming.

What's pushing the Neo Geo hardware with Blazing Star is overstuffing the ROM and memory with all the cool visuals, effects, and FMV

Yes. Something a disc based console cannot do.

The Neo Geo was specifically designed for the few styles of games it was built for within its limitations

Of course it was.

Sega wasn't predicting that there would be Neo Geo games looking like Blazing Star or KOF 98 in 5 years when they were developing the Saturn, they were at most thinking 2 years ahead especially once they took a turn toward focusing on 3D more and seeing 3D as the future, 2D games in 5 years wasn't even a topic of interest at Sega

Of course it wasn't.

The Neo Geo CD was poorly built with it's own issues and has a 1X single speed disc drive

The disc drive speed is not the problem of the console but you demonstrated several times that you do not have good experience with hardware.

matter how much pork you stuff in ROM you aren't having a game like Night Striker on the Neo Geo and that's a basic scaler.

And that's fine since it was never designed to do this anyway. The Neo Geo remains capable of many 2D feats the PS1 and Saturn can only dream off, especially in terms of the quantity of 2D stuff it can refresh at once. The console was designed with this mind, and even a console like the Saturn with great 2D hardware capabilities struggles to update huge sprites and animated background without slowdowns.

SamSho 4 is full of slowdowns. The CPS2 cross overs are certainly not 60fps smooth either, and these had their backgrounds simplified probably because Capcom probably anticipated the ports. They even choose the CPS3 CPU to make ports easier... (same as Saturn).

COTA and MSH were very complicated ports because their backgrounds are super elaborated and sprites huge. Saturn had a decent COTA port thanks to the wizardry of M2 (with a ton of animation cuts) but PS1 was totally unable to handle this game.

MSH has a ton of slowdowns on Saturn. SamSho 4 falls in the same category. I think the ability to update so many pixels and sprites pushes the hardware pretty hard, yet it is done easily by Neo Geo, a console designed to do this.

Also dezooming on Neo Geo is basically free. It is done with a simple hardware logic, for information.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

Whenever something looks better on any other console its "storage" related, but when something looks better on the Jaguar its "capabilities".

Yeah, that's kind of how reality works. Video quality compressed pictures in Lomax take up space, just like the ones in Blazing star, how much of that can you put in a 2MB cart? Another bad faith argument. Rayman is 3MB, how much more do you think can be stuffed in the game? Rayman also isn't the best 2D game on a console, so another game may have some of things it doesn't have and takes a sacrifice in another area. The are games on the Jaguar with more than single layer parralalx than Rayman, so the jaguar could clearly do it, so what reason do you think the jaguar doesn't have 2-3 like the PS1 has in several levels? There's only one actual answer, and that's storage size.

Meanwhile you ignore all the 2D capability advantages the Jaguar has over the PS1 version, from having more frames of animation, better scrolling, missing objects, better detail, smoother animation, better sprite resolution, more colors, etc and you have to ignore that because it completely invalidates your entire argument. the only 2D advantage the PS1 version of Rayman has is parallax, which would have easily been fixed by increased the cart size or rereleasing the game on Jag CD.

You also forget that Rayman was made with the Jaguar in mind, all the other versions are ports.

I didn't forget anything, you are the one who is ignoring information to validate your false beliefs. The other two versions were developed specifically for the other consoles, which is why there are several non-graphical gameplay differences between them and the Jaguar version. The jaguar version which is superior to the PS1 version and partially the Saturn version mostly runs on the crippling 68000.

It's already bad enough that a PS1 with more storage can't handle additional frames and other details the 4MB jag version can, but it it was actually ported in the way you imply than that would further give confirmation the PS1 has problems with 2D sprites.

Lomax was made with the PS1 in mind and looks better than Rayman. That's how to me it looks like the PS1 might be better at 2D in general but not so much at sprite scalling.

"looks" are not relevant, and this is the cruz of your bad faith argument. Blazing Star also "looks" better than Rayman imo, but it's not in terms of capabilities, neither show the PS1 or the Neo Geo are better in sprite capabilities than the jaguar, they only show what you can do with additional storage. There are 3DO games that had effects that look more impressive than Rayman, imo visually Gex looks better, and yet the 3DO runs most 2D games at 30FPS or less, and has worse sprite capabilities than a late SNES game. But it can use the storage space to add effects and visual tricks, not to mention FMV backgrounds and CG photos. But all that does is cover up the 3DO's weaknesses.

You have to have powerful 2D capabilities to scale, a scaling game requires better 2D technology than a game that doesn't. Especially with large detailed and fast graphics. If the PS1 could handle 2D better than the Jag there wouldn't be missing frames (as shown in the video YOU didn't watch) and graphical elements in Rayman despite it having 650MB of storage, and it wouldn't handle Night Striker, which ALSO had missing frames and other graphics, at HALF the frame rate as the Saturn version, for a BASIC scaler game.

You are trying very hard to pretend that none of this is a problem, but it is. The PS1 is like the 3DO, a 3D focused machine, only difference is the PS1 has more horsepower than the 3DO so can run 2D games better just by power alone. But that can only go so far before the weaknesses become obvious and the PS1 has many weaknesses. But with the right devs and money you can still make some pretty impressive 2D titles that cover up those weaknesses.

To say the PS1 has better 2D in general is false automatically because the weaknesses it has in scaling applies to side scrolling 2D games, that's why the Saturn version of Rayman does not share the same weaknesses as the PS1 version compared to the Jaguar. It's also why the Saturn and Jag are better as scaling than the PS1. Visually a game may look better on the PS1, but those visual advantages have nothing to do with technology, it has to do with actions you can only have with more storage space.

Also every game shared on the PSX that is on the Jaguar CD is graphically better on the Jaguar (outside what uses the PSX's video player, and Primal Rage which is the same game but uses sprites from the the pre-PS1 version for some reason.)

sprite scalling games are not the same as platforms, etc. The Neo-Geo is pretty bad at sprite scalling too. The Jaguar is probably the best at this after the Saturn ofc.

You're right, it requires better technology.

So the order is again, Saturn>Jaguar>PS1>>Neo Geo>SNES(late)>MD>3DO in 2D "capabilities" overall.

Maybe you could put the N64 in front of the 3DO, but I'd have to look into it's 2D more, it may be worse if you focus on 2D only.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

It doesn't demonstrate anything as Neo Geo does things PS1 cannot and vice versa. You want to make a stupid classification so hard that you lose common sense.

No you aren't using common sense. You are comparing one consoles that is more capable of 2D sprites and comparing it to a console that has an advantage that has NOTHING to do with 2D capability. Otherwise the Neo Geo would be handle game like Night Striker (it can't) if it was a trade off, it's not. What prevents the PS1 from dealing with some Neo Geo games easily has nothing to do with 2D capability and how the hardware handles sprites, and what hardware, tools, and features they have in relation to sprite. This is something that shouldn't be hard to understand.

The Neo geo would NEED different hardware to run Night Striker. Neo geo already had the ROM/RAM combo advantage, so this is an example of why that has nothing to do with sprite capability. Blazing Star would have problems being ported tot he PS1 as is, but there's nothing BlazingStar itself is doing in the 2D realm the PS1 can't do, and better. You're conflating unrelated issues to create a false equivalency that doesn't exist. The reason why Blazing Star would have problems being ported to the PS1 as is can be fixed, porting Night Striker to the Neo geo cannot be fixed, and would require new hardware.

For your information Neo Geo is hardware capable of dezooming.

If by dezoom you mean shrink out, yes, I've said that multiple times already, and it's not really scaling, especially how games that scale do it, which the Neo geo is incapable of for the most part.

Yes. Something a disc based console cannot do.

Yes it can.

The disc drive speed is not the problem of the console but you demonstrated several times that you do not have good experience with hardware.

No, you have proven your ignorance about hardware and have made faulty comparisons without even looking into the weakness of the hardware you speak of, immediacy flipping to blaming the disc drive which is pointless, wrong, an doesn't really provide much of honest technical conversation because you are clearly trying to sweep away further investigation into other causes than "disc drive" blaming.

And that's fine since it was never designed to do this anyway.

Except not so fast, that was the point, the 2D technology and capability has to be higher than the Neo geo in order to do so, the fact the Neo geo can't proves it's weaker 2D hardware. Trying to swerve around that fact is worthless.

even a console like the Saturn with great 2D hardware capabilities struggles to update huge sprites and animated background without slowdowns.

Yet there's a solution for that because the Saturn is more capable, where as a Saturn Port of Night Striker to the Neo Geo doesn't have a solution. One of which being more ram, has nothing to do with the Saturns sprite capabilities, and the neo geo having more ram than a Saturn also has nothing to do with sprite capabilities. yes, it has a good set up that can aid with sprites but not the sprites itself.

Neo Geo could have 80MBs of Ram and a 1GB cartridge and it's still not going to be able to handle not just a scaler like Night Striker, but many of the more clean large detailed sprites in in other game styles the consoles had, the Neo Geo does actually have a limit. There's a reason why games like Meta Slug run at 30fps and the sprites aren't exactly bold and clean with high res. They still look good when considering the platforms limitations.

Can you post an example? I don't think any 16/32 bit console is capable of having more detailed sprites than the Neo Geo.

Not sure where 16 came from.

Ok, what game do you consider to have the most "clean" large colorful detailed sprites on the Neo Geo to compare with?

 

[Futaleufu]

Neo Geo could have 80MBs of Ram and a 1GB cartridge and it's still not going to be able to handle not just a scaler like Night Striker, but many of the more clean large detailed sprites in in other game styles the consoles had, the Neo Geo does actually have a limit.

Can you post an example? I don't think any 16/32 bit console is capable of having more detailed sprites than the Neo Geo.

 

[Chiggs]

Have you played the system? It actually has a few good games. Btw, silent Doom was the best console version of Doom for quite a long time.

I owned it briefly in high school. AVP and Iron Soldier were fun, but I had a gaming PC and played Doom and Wolf on that.

 

[cinnamonandgravy]

The SEGA CD was never meant to be a budget offering. It was a premium console for people wanting something different and premium ports.

makes me instantly think of MK1 on the sega CD.
more frames of animation and better sound... but the graphics are still from the genesis version.

lame.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

Ps1 also trounces Jaguar visually in NBA Jam with much larger character sprites, more frames of animation per character, better crowd animation, and a bigger color palette. The Jaguar is competing (favorably) with the the 32x version while the PS1 version trades blows with the Saturn one.

You mean the Jaguar version that's not rea;;y the same game and was aiming to be different? Which also, wasn't using realistic human proportions and had giant big heads? Really? Also not among the most impressive 2D games for the jaguar so it's odd you even brought it up, it's like if you wanted to prove the Saturns 2D capabilities compared tot he PS1, and bring up Canon Fodder.

Meanwhile, there is no PS1 sprite shmup that is as colorful, and moves objects anywhere near as fast as Defender 2000, the ship is also fast, particle effects everywhere, scaling and rotating sprites and color pulsing galore, then you have the bullets and lasers and explosions, which also serve as particle effects often.

Now Saturn on the other hand shouldn't have a problem outside the color stuff.

 

[SpiceRacz]

This is reminiscent of that thread from a few years ago where that dude was arguing the Atari Lynx was more powerful than the Genesis.

 

[BlackTron]

Their slogan was do the math. People did the math

This is the best thing I've read today

 

[AJUMP23]

This is the best thing I've read today

You should read some David McCullough.

 

[eNT1TY]

You mean the Jaguar version that's not rea;;y the same game and was aiming to be different? Which also, wasn't using realistic human proportions and had giant big heads? Really? Also not among the most impressive 2D games for the jaguar so it's odd you even brought it up, it's like if you wanted to prove the Saturns 2D capabilities compared tot he PS1, and bring up Canon Fodder.

Meanwhile, there is no PS1 sprite shmup that is as colorful, and moves objects anywhere near as fast as Defender 2000, the ship is also fast, particle effects everywhere, scaling and rotating sprites and color pulsing galore, then you have the bullets and lasers and explosions, which also serve as particle effects often.

Now Saturn on the other hand shouldn't have a problem outside the color stuff.

Defender is basic as shit, it is a endlessly scrolling 1 screen long tiled background per stage with little to no amimation frames on enemies, they are for the most part static sprites with less complex animated frames than og Galaga. The particles on display are simple as crap, the ps1 audio visualizer's particle animations are more complex and density is significantly higher. In the Hunt has better sprite work , animation, and density than any schmup on the jaguar, the closest thing is shitty ass Trevor McFur, why don't you compare those 2?

 

[nkarafo]

Yeah, no, i'm not buying how the better effects and parallax scrolling in the PS1 Rayman port are as such because "more storage". Sorry.

Lomax looks better, not only because of the aesthetics but it also has more things going on than Rayman, technically. You may disagree but hey, that's how it looks to me. Other than that, we are all arguing about things we see with our eyes and know with our very limited technical knowledge. There's no point arguing further unless some developer/programmer who knows what he is talking about can prove either one of us wrong.

One more thing, your gifs don't show what you want to demonstrate. The are all 30fps or lower. Maybe post some 60fps videos instead?

Maybe you could put the N64 in front of the 3DO, but I'd have to look into it's 2D more, it may be worse if you focus on 2D only.

Did you just imply the N64 is worse than the MD or SNES at 2D? Why?

But you don't know, do you? You just assume things with your very limited technical knowledge and zero N64 experience?

Since you don't know much about the N64, i'll tell you. From all the games i played, i'd say it's right behind the Saturn (if you count things like Rakuga Kids as 2D).

 

[S0ULZB0URNE]

Didn't Jaguar have a good port of Raiden?

Yes but it had major fps drops when I played it.

 

[Futaleufu]

Ok, what game do you consider to have the most "clean" large colorful detailed sprites on the Neo Geo to compare with?

Does any game Jaguar game have something like this?

or this?

 

[Ozzie666]

Does any game Jaguar game have something like this?

or this?

Those are clearly the power of the CD ROM working there, or the art direction, or the talented teams behind the games, or they were ports of a Jaguar game after the fact. Whatever non sensible excuse you can read in this thread. I've done the math and still believe the Saturn and PS1 are above the Jaguar, CD or Not. So I'm in full agreement with you

Metal Slug sprite work is still so good. Imagine if the Playstation had a cartridge, what it could do. Imagine MK3 without the mid round loads, would be perfection.
Obviously Metal Slug is no Defender though..

 

[Chiggs]

I can’t believe people are doubting the 2d power of the Neo Geo in this thread. Holy smokes, if Art of Fighting 3, Blazing Star, Prehistoric Isle 2, Samurai Showdown IV, and Metal Slug 3 can’t convince you….

 

[BlackTron]

I did not know Rayman was originally made for Jaguar. I mean I knew it was on the system but I thought it was mainly a PSX game. Cool origin story...in a Towerfall on Ouya type of way.

I respect the fandom but there's a reason they only sold 150k. Even as a kid you only took one look at the thing and say this is whack AF. I can't even think of a more lame looking controller. I remember seeing them in the bargain bin at KB Toys and thinking "of course, who would want that with Nintendo and Sega around?" This is before PSX even entered to mop up.

I shake my head at N64 blunders like the tiny texture cache but that seems petty compared to this catastrophic hardware design. Even the people who like it just think of it as a shittier Saturn.

 

[cireza]

What prevents the PS1 from dealing with some Neo Geo games easily has nothing to do with 2D capability and how the hardware handles sprites, and what hardware, tools, and features they have in relation to sprite. This is something that shouldn't be hard to understand.

This is wrong and despite the time I spent giving you concrete examples on how even a console like the Saturn is bandwidth constrained, you are refuting the argument on the basis of your complete ignorance of all technical aspects.

This is a Neo Geo cartridge PCB. Yes, there are two boards. Yes, the number of connectors is enormous. Which leads to a very big bandwidth of data. And the console itself was conceived exactly the same way. It has a monster of a motherboard.

Like it or not, these are hardware features implemented to enable 2D capabilities that no other console has matched before the sixth generation, consoles that could finally replicate the experience of Neo Geo with specific ports and loadings.

but there's nothing BlazingStar itself is doing in the 2D realm the PS1 can't do, and better

You actually have no clue. Who tells you that the PS1 can replicate full screen animations like the Neo Geo did, which means streaming entirely different 2D pictures each frame ? I have my doubts about the Saturn, so the PS1, a console that doesn't even have anything 2D related in hardware, would most certainly be unable to do this. When doing this kind of stuff, we quickly reach hardware bottlenecks.

If by dezoom you mean shrink out, yes, I've said that multiple times already, and it's not really scaling

lol. Dezooming is a scaling effect.

Yes it can.

Of course not lol. Unless you invented some kind of miraculous technique that allows instant streaming from discs.

No

Check your facts. Neo Geo CD and CDZ always had single speed drives. If you are going to blatantly lie or spread misinformation, you might as well stop discussing right now.

One of which being more ram

As explained before, you can add all the RAM you want to Saturn, the console still won't be able to update huge ass sprites + entire 2D backgrounds at 60fps. Other hardware bottlenecks come into place. And PS1 would struggle even more.

 

[nkarafo]

Imagine if the Playstation had a cartridge, what it could do.

After everyone wondering what the N64 would do if it had a CD Rom, this is a refreshing idea.

I can’t believe people are doubting the 2d power of the Neo Geo in this thread.

Not people, just one person.

I shake my head at N64 blunders like the tiny texture cache but that seems petty compared to this catastrophic hardware design. Even the people who like it just think of it as a shittier Saturn.

I don't. I think it's better than the Saturn at 3D and almost as good at 2D.

The texture cache was simple to overcome, though a bit more labor intensive. RARE showed how it's done with Banjo-Kazooie (using x amount of smaller textures to create a single bigger one).

It has 4 MB RAM, which is the same amount as the Saturn + 2MB expansion and with it's own expansion pack it can reach 8MB. It also uses cart ROMs that are bigger than the Jaguar's but smaller than the later Ne-Geo games.

Theoretically, the N64 could do perfect arcade conversions of many Midway, Capcom and SNK games using 16 or 32MB carts. Games like MK1/2/3, SF Alpha and the first Metal Slug could fit in such cart without cuts and still have the speed of the cartridge and enough RAM if needed. But in 1998, when the first 32MB cart appeared, these games were too old i assume and the ROMs too expensive for the investment so maybe that's why we never saw such conversion. Otherwise i don't see any technical limitations to prevent such ports. I hope the homebrew community fixes that some day.

 

[RAIDEN1]

How the Atari dev's ever thought their console (the Jag) would ever be a success in the state it was in, we will never know....but in absolutely no way was it showing the power of 64-bit...despite what it says on the tin...(so to speak...)

 

[Kiya's Guard]

What? I didn't know that about rayman!

 

[nkarafo]

How the Atari dev's ever thought their console (the Jag) would ever be a success in the state it was in, we will never know....but in absolutely no way was it showing the power of 64-bit...despite what it says on the tin...(so to speak...)

Well, "bits" was just the buzzword at the time. Kinda like "GHz" during the Pentium 4 days. Or the resolution wars of today.

In reality, bits was only a small part of the equation. Here, both games run on systems with an 8bit CPU:

Obviously NEC never marketed the PC engine based on "bits" because that would make it look really bad, wouldn't it?

There are many more examples. Like how the Neo-Geo is a 16bit system, yet it took up to the Dreamcast to be able to have perfect ports of it's later games.

 

[RAIDEN1]

Well, "bits" was just the buzzword at the time. Kinda like "GHz" during the Pentium 4 days. Or the resolution wars of today.

In reality. Bits was only a small part of the equation. Here, both games run on systems with an 8bit CPU:

Obviously NEC never marketed the PC engine based on "bits" because that would make it look really bad, wouldn't it?

There are many more examples. Like how the Neo-Geo is a 16bit system, yet it took up to the Dreamcast to be able to have perfect ports of it's later games.

It was understood that Neo Geo was like the Rolls Royce of gaming....you had that then you had THE 2d powerhouse directly in your home on a level the SNES or Genesis couldn't compete on....I think the NEC could have made a dent in Europe if they had tried...or more globally so to speak instead of just patchy coverage in the U.S.of A...etc...

 

[Azelover]

Because we know what happened commercially, we don't even look at these products so much. I was taking a look at the Apple Pippin, and I was shocked to see it had a few redeeming qualities.

The problem is lack of key software. Even the Jaquar could have been successful if it had an incredible lineup of games.