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[FunkMiller]

I was referencing China, which will get involved in a world war.

No. It absolutely won't.

There will never be a war between west and east. Despite China and Russia being partners, they are business partners, no more no less. China is mostly a country focused on business partnerships, and war is not viewed as a way to achieve growth. You can see this through the One Belt One Road initiative, through their trading with countries under sanctions, etc. They don't give a fuck, current China just cares about $$$$. I simply don't see them siding with Russia on any type of conflict that doesn't threaten their immediate economy.

The only possible conflict for China might be Taiwan but, once again, they won't directly invade anything. It will be a slow process, worked from the inside.

Correct.

Never before in the history of global politics have all the major players been so inextricably linked with all the other players monetarily speaking. China will do nothing that threatens their economy. I'd even go so far as to say they'd back the west against Russia if it came down to it.

 

[FunkMiller]

A scumbag move but sure had the Japanese surrender. Nuked innocents. Not once but twice.

Incredibly strong argument to say that Hiroshima and Nagasaki saved millions and millions of both Japanese and allied lives.

 

[Tschumi]

World War 3 would detonate too many trade lines that too many nations, including the US, rely on to exist. They wouldn't let it happen. But Russia isn't capable of causing a world War, they're just trying to act like they are.





China relies on it too, economic growth is still their main means of securing a social contract with their people, recent slowdown has lead to social points systems, abducted icons of wealth and internationalism, carefully increased nationalism in xinjiang, Hong Kong, etc, to distract Chinese people from the threats to their quality of life.

 

[Dream-Knife]

There will never be a war between west and east. Despite China and Russia being partners, they are business partners, no more no less. China is mostly a country focused on business partnerships, and war is not viewed as a way to achieve growth. You can see this through the One Belt One Road initiative, through their trading with countries under sanctions, etc. They don't give a fuck, current China just cares about $$$$. I simply don't see them siding with Russia on any type of conflict that doesn't threaten their immediate economy.

The only possible conflict for China might be Taiwan but, once again, they won't directly invade anything. It will be a slow process, worked from the inside.

China is already working up to a military invasion of Taiwan. How the west handles this will determine the time table.

 

[Ionian]

What are you on about? I seem to notice that it's Russia doing the invading here. What's America got to do with that?

Read my posts again, Slowly possibly so you can digest. Don't be a Sarlac. Digest the Boba.

- Vietnam
- Iraq
- Afghanistan

When did they join and what is the common factor?

I'll put his under a spoiler as you don't seem to know;

 

[Ionian]

Incredibly strong argument to say that Hiroshima and Nagasaki saved millions and millions of both Japanese and allied lives.

I've had the argument with many people. I believe it to have been wrong to nuke innocents. The argument against me was better for a quick resolve. I can see that as the Japanese weren't giving up, however I think nuking cities of innocents to be so very wrong. That wasn't fair at all. It changed the face of war that still permeates today. Remember the 'cold war' afterwards between the US and Russia?

Kill a million to save millions in 2 nuclear bombs? That was brutal. The nuclear bombs were aimed at the innocent. Wiped out generations. Changed the world we live in. Japanese were beaten into submission with the death of innocent people.

What was the name of the bombs again? oh yeah 'Big boy' and 'Little boy'.

Contentious view I know but I deem it to be absolutely barbaric. I can see both points but I consider the war was already over without that being needed. It was , in my opinion, an absolute slaughter of people not even fighting.

 

[RoyalLaFlame]

China is already working up to a military invasion of Taiwan. How the west handles this will determine the time table.

China is working up their military, that's it, doesn't mean invasion is on the table. It's a power move aimed at making Taiwan (and the US) afraid, nothing more. And most of those things are western propaganda to rile up people against China. China-Taiwan relationship is actually a very tricky one.

The west wants the invasion to happen, but it won't happen any time soon. The only situation where Mainland China could go to war with Taiwan was if Taiwan declared itself formally as independent. And to be honest, Taiwan hasn't done it yet because cross-strait relationships are important to them (and to China). China is all about making business, and invading Taiwan would risk their position as a major economic player. And not even talking about how hard and costly it would be for China to even attempt to invade Taiwan.

I have a strong feeling it won't happen anytime soon.

No. It absolutely won't.



Correct.

Never before in the history of global politics have all the major players been so inextricably linked with all the other players monetarily speaking. China will do nothing that threatens their economy. I'd even go so far as to say they'd back the west against Russia if it came down to it.

If Russia was going against China, China would certainly side with the west. But as it stands, China is removing itself from this mess, as it can interfere with their foreign policies.

 

[Ionian]

(complete side note, my Father gave me a newspaper as kid as it said "Star Wars!". I was so excited thinking it was a film. I remember looking up to him after reading it with a confused expression. He laughed. Bloody Reagan and satellites. Not cool for a kid. Then again he had me read a Carrie Fisher op-ed. Nothing again about Star Wars. I gave up after that and just stuck to my toys.

 

[Ionian]

Incredibly strong argument to say that Hiroshima and Nagasaki saved millions and millions of both Japanese and allied lives.

That was my argument against them. Hence the heated debates.

 

[Halo is Back]

Read my posts again, Slowly possibly so you can digest. Don't be a Sarlac. Digest the Boba.

- Vietnam
- Iraq
- Afghanistan

When did they join and what is the common factor?

I'll put his under a spoiler as you don't seem to know;

Sure, but just because America had its own invasions doesn't mean what Russia is doing ok. Also, the invasion of Iraq was between many nations in the west and east. Not just America, but America was the main culprit in occupying the country long after Saddam's regime was toppled.

 

[akimbo009]

Read my posts again, Slowly possibly so you can digest. Don't be a Sarlac. Digest the Boba.

- Vietnam
- Iraq
- Afghanistan

When did they join and what is the common factor?

I'll put his under a spoiler as you don't seem to know;

Sorry, still don't know what you're going on about in a thread about Russia invading Ukraine.

 

[Ionian]

Sure, but just because America had its own invasions doesn't mean what Russia is doing ok. Also, the invasion of Iraq was between many nations in the west and east. Not just America, but America was the main culprit in occupying the country long after Saddam's regime was toppled.

Yup, that's a fact and then they went 'OK, bye!". Hard to comment without breaking the no politics rule, I'd rather not eat a ban over something so blatant yet trivial. My PM's are open for further discussion. Polite discussion of course, no harm in differing opinions but a debate I'm open for.

 

[Ionian]

Sure, but just because America had its own invasions doesn't mean what Russia is doing ok. Also, the invasion of Iraq was between many nations in the west and east. Not just America, but America was the main culprit in occupying the country long after Saddam's regime was toppled.

Never said it was OK. The love of my life is Polish. I'm naturally concerned.

 

[Ionian]

Sorry, still don't know what you're going on about in a thread about Russia invading Ukraine.

Just read my posts from the start, any questions I'm happy to answer.

 

[FunkMiller]

I've had the argument with many people. I believe it to have been wrong to nuke innocents. The argument against me was better for a quick resolve. I can see that as the Japanese weren't giving up, however I think nuking cities of innocents to be so very wrong. That wasn't fair at all. It changed the face of war that still permeates today. Remember the 'cold war' afterwards between the US and Russia?

Kill a million to save millions in 2 nuclear bombs? That was brutal. The nuclear bombs were aimed at the innocent. Wiped out generations. Changed the world we live in. Japanese were beaten into submission with the death of innocent people.

What was the name of the bombs again? oh yeah 'Big boy' and 'Little boy'.

Contentious view I know but I deem it to be absolutely barbaric. I can see both points but I consider the war was already over without that being needed. It was , in my opinion, an absolute slaughter of people not even fighting.

If we hadn’t dropped the two atomic weapons, Japan would never have surrendered, leading to a very bloody ground war that would have claimed far, FAR more lives than the 200 thousand killed by the bombs - including many more innocent Japanese lives.

The atom bomb saved lives in that circumstance, and arguably, nuclear bombs have also saved millions of lives ever since, because they have prevented large scale warfare between large nation states.

Yes, vaporising thousands with atomic weapons was barbaric. But it was necessary. There was no better choice. It was the best option to stop millions dying. It was the right decision. The humanitarian decision.

 

[Atrus]

I hope we can handle this through economic means.

Not only are the belligerants nations armed with nuclear weapons, both China and Russia can field vast armies armed with modern-ish tech so the conflict isn't as one-sided as most NATO involved conflicts usually are.

A modern battlefield between near-peer nations is a fucking nightmare and it only gets worse as tecnology progresses.

 

[KingGhidorah]

Russia is preparing another front

Images show new deployment of military vehicles in Belarus -Maxar

Satellite images show a new deployment of more than 100 military vehicles and dozens of troop tents in southern Belarus near the Ukraine border, a private U.S. company said on Tuesday.

www.reuters.com

they don't want partial Ukraine, they want the whole Ukraine

 

[Wildebeest]

Nobody is talking about starting a major global war over this. Sanctions are seen as a stronger option than diplomacy, but not as disastrous as war, but they don't seem to trouble Russian gangsters at all. What people are talking about are Cold War tactics, such as arming "freedom fighters" in the same way as when Russia had their conflict in Afghanistan. This was extremely effective against the Soviet Union at the time, but I also seem to remember it going very sour in Syria.

People are talking about EU leaders suddenly getting a new burst of enthusiasm and faith for NATO, but you can translate this as the EU just hoping that the US will be able to secure their borders. I think that many EU nations have not really considered that their militaries might actually have to be prepared to fight to protect their interests, unlike the US/UK military, which are pretty much always able to fight in some capacity. EU members think they can just control things through mercantilism and appeasement, while Russia are writing the textbooks on Hybrid warfare.

 

[Ionian]

If we hadn’t dropped the two atomic weapons, Japan would never have surrendered, leading to a very bloody ground war that would have claimed far, FAR more lives than the 110 thousand killed by the bombs - including many more innocent Japanese lives.

The atom bomb saved lives in that circumstance, and arguably, nuclear bombs have also saved millions of lives ever since, because they have prevented large scale warfare between large nation states.

Yes, vaporising thousands with atomic weapons was barbaric. But it was necessary. There was no better choice. It was the best option to stop millions dying. It was the right decision. The humanitarian decision.

That's were I begged to differ with the people I argued with. I see the point, they said exactly what you said, I just disagree. A world weary of war when it was practically over already, the West had Germany on it's back-legs. With Russia and the allies moving in and already winning, (Hitler knew never to fight a war on two fronts, yet he got greedy and did). Was BFF with Stalin yet in Mein Kampf said all Stalin needed to know and it all came true, Stalin studied his pompous book and knew Hitler would attack him eventually.

I still think it was horrendous. wipe out civilians to save lives in one sweep doesn't sit right with me. Even those who survived for generations suffered from it. Whether it be cancer or abnormalities. It was a war crime. But as they say the victorious makes the rules and everything else gets swept away. Case in point, wipe out Germany instead? Nope Pearl harbour. war would have been over far quicker if America stepped in before that instead of ignoring pleas for assistance far far before the end.

 

[Lukaku's First Touch]

It's time the russian people did their part. If they really are against what is happening they should show it. I always thought they were a proud and strong people, but it seems they're just like everyone else and cower away. You can't tell me those 800k army personel all agree with what's happening, let alone the millions of other russians.

And about sanctions, they should focus on these oliarchs and their possesions. Everyone knows putin is only this long in power because of his rich friends. Take all their stuff abroad, ban them from entering nato countries, ...

 

[FunkMiller]

That's were I begged to differ with the people I argued with. I see the point, they said exactly what you said, I just disagree. A world weary of war when it was practically over already, the West had Germany on it's back-legs. With Russia and the allies moving in and already winning, (Hitler knew never to fight a war on two fronts, yet he got greedy and did). Was BFF with Stalin yet in Mein Kampf said all Stalin needed to know and it all came true, Stalin studied his pompous book and knew Hitler would attack him eventually.

I still think it was horrendous. wipe out civilians to save lives in one sweep doesn't sit right with me. Even those who survived for generations suffered from it. Whether it be cancer or abnormalities. It was a war crime. But as they say the victorious makes the rules and everything else gets swept away. Case in point, wipe out Germany instead? Nope Pearl harbour. war would have been over far quicker if America stepped in before that instead of ignoring pleas for assistance far far before the end.

Your point over the European war is valid, but Japan were not in the same worn down position as the Germans in 1945. And Oppenheimer had not completed his project in time for the European campaign, otherwise it may have been used on Berlin.

The Japanese people at the time essentially worshiped the emperor as a godlike figure. Make no mistake, Japanese civilians would have taken up arms against any invading allied forces. The allies had already had a good taste of what a ground campaign in Japan would have been like. The atomic bomb was only deployed because they knew Japan would never surrender, and the bloodshed on both sides would be horrific.

The choice was a ground campaign and millions dead, or drop the bomb with hundreds of thousands dead. The right decision was taken.

 

[RoyalLaFlame]

Maybe take a look through some history books regarding the pacific campaign. Your point over the European war is valid, but Japan were not in the same worn down position as the Germans in 1945. And Oppenheimer had not completed his project in time for the European campaign, otherwise it may have been used on Berlin.

The Japanese people at the time essentially worshiped the emperor as a godlike figure. Make no mistake, Japanese civilians would have taken up arms against any invading allied forces. The allies had already had a good taste of what a ground campaign in Japan would have been like. The atomic bomb was only deployed because they knew Japan would never surrender, and the bloodshed on both sides would be horrific.

The choice was a ground campaign and millions dead, or drop the bomb with hundreds of thousands dead. The right decision was taken.

I've read as well that the Soviet Union at the time going after Japan is what made the US drop the bomb (EDIT: I mean, it wasn't the cause of it, but what I meant is that Japan didn't surrender because of the bombs, but they were rather afraid of Soviet Union entering the war. If it had any influence on the US dropping the bombs, it is unknown but I wouldn't rule it out). It was a show of force to the Soviets, while making sure that Japan would fall on US hands. The Japanese saw it as a great way of surrendering, by saying that a magic weapon did so, instead of losing to a man on man combat against two superpowers (Soviet Union and US).

Source 1
Source 2

 

[Ionian]

It's time the russian people did their part. If they really are against what is happening they should show it. I always thought they were a proud and strong people, but it seems they're just like everyone else and cower away. You can't tell me those 800k army personel all agree with what's happening, let alone the millions of other russians.

And about sanctions, they should focus on these oliarchs and their possesions. Everyone knows putin is only this long in power because of his rich friends. Take all their stuff abroad, ban them from entering nato countries, ...

Firstly sanctions have been placed numerous times and oligarch's have been stripped of wealth. Doesn't make a difference.

As for the people, anyone I met in Europe has been amazingly nice and honestly a pleasure to know. In Russia, a country that has the numbers to basically push soldiers through a meat-grinder and beat the enemy with old weapons and tanks to overwhelm the opposition and give zero fucks. Think a zombie seige. Man after man mowed down or starved to death, onto the next one. Hitler was so close to taking Russia, he made a wrong move by heading south and that was the end of him. Russia wouldn't stop and he fucked up massively. I can't imagine how much the Russian military laughed at him then, he was a dead duck once winter came.

 

[BigBooper]

The bombs were called Fat man and Little boy, btw.

 

[BigBooper]

Putin is cracked, his got a lot of change out of playing chicken in places the West doesn't care about, but fucking with Europe? They thought war was behind them, then they're watching a strongman at the head of a country with flawed economics trying to set his personality cult in stone by sacrificing a people similarly as developed and 'contemporary' as Germans?

I hope this somehow proves to be his downfall, but it basically depends on how much of a beat down the West is willing to lay on him.

Let's just avoid mentioning that Trump took Putin at his word ahead of his own intelligence community, tried to use Putin's methods to stay in power, and gave Putin a free pass to screw with the governments of other nations... fucking leatherbound gimp...

What territories did Putin annex from 2016 to 2020?

 

[FunkMiller]

I've read as well that the Soviet Union at the time going after Japan is what made the US drop the bomb (EDIT: I mean, it wasn't the cause of it, but what I meant is that Japan didn't surrender because of the bombs, but they were rather afraid of Soviet Union entering the war. If it had any influence on the US dropping the bombs, it is unknown but I wouldn't rule it out). It was a show of force to the Soviets, while making sure that Japan would fall on US hands. The Japanese saw it as a great way of surrendering, by saying that a magic weapon did so, instead of losing to a man on man combat against two superpowers (Soviet Union and US).

Source 1
Source 2

The Manchuria campaign certainly had an effect, but the principal reason for the surrender was due to the destructive capability of the atom bomb. The Japanese were so far down the rabbit hole at that point they would have fought with bamboo sticks to the last man against any invading force.

 

[Ionian]

Your point over the European war is valid, but Japan were not in the same worn down position as the Germans in 1945. And Oppenheimer had not completed his project in time for the European campaign, otherwise it may have been used on Berlin.

The Japanese people at the time essentially worshiped the emperor as a godlike figure. Make no mistake, Japanese civilians would have taken up arms against any invading allied forces. The allies had already had a good taste of what a ground campaign in Japan would have been like. The atomic bomb was only deployed because they knew Japan would never surrender, and the bloodshed on both sides would be horrific.

The choice was a ground campaign and millions dead, or drop the bomb with hundreds of thousands dead. The right decision was taken.

With Germany screwed Japan would have no allies, Italy was a nothing by that stage. Could have sued for peace then. What happened to the emperor after the war? He lived long but lost his power. Always found it weird how them invading China was basically a precursor to everything.

In the same respect, what did the west do then? Not much. Set the board for warfare with most countries waving their finger at them and Germany like they were bold children, they knew they couldn't go head on so started ramping up armies for what would be the inevitable conflict.

Britain and France: Holy fuck America we're getting screwed here, send help!
America: Not yet, maybe later. Have some supplies instead.

War could have been shorter. Was only after Pearl Harbour, years after the war started that America threw their hat in the ring properly.

 

[RoyalLaFlame]

The Manchuria campaign certainly had an effect, but the principal reason for the surrender was due to the destructive capability of the atom bomb. The Japanese were so far down the rabbit hole at that point they would have fought with bamboo sticks to the last man against any invading force.

I think the possible attack on their Manchuria Army was what made Japan surrender. The Soviets and Japan had an agreement, and when the Soviets were forced to enter the war, Japan already knew this would fuck them over. After Nazi Germany surrender, Russia would only have one place to go - Japan's territory.

The bombings did help, but Japan was already mostly destroyed by previous bombings. I don't think they gave a shit about the atomic bombs. Like you said, they would fight with bamboo sticks if needed, but losing the people that would give them a chance to fight back (Manchurian Army)? Nah, that was a lost fight. Not only that, but if the Soviets managed to wipe their asses, they would be another divided country, with the Soviets and US on each side.

Basically, a combination of both did it.


Yeah, but this is not the thread for it hahahahaha

 

[Whitecrow]

The thing is, Putin knows noone will pull the trigger for an all out war, so he thinks he can do whatever he wants.

I do think he will keep testing and pressuring the west. The hunger for power doesnt just vanish.

I just hope noone takes the bait..
I preffer to be invaded than watch the world burn... I guess.

 

[TTOOLL]

I am curious to know how will the west react to this.

Probably nothing, maybe some sanctions which mean nothing anyway.

 

[KingGhidorah]

Probably nothing, maybe some sanctions which mean nothing anyway.

The West already sanction Russia to the bone, they are already immune. They're poor but they get by.

Their soldiers on the field are poor, outside the military they got nothing. Invading and reclaiming Ukraine will give them national pride and morale boost

 

[RJMacready73]

That's were I begged to differ with the people I argued with. I see the point, they said exactly what you said, I just disagree. A world weary of war when it was practically over already, the West had Germany on it's back-legs. With Russia and the allies moving in and already winning, (Hitler knew never to fight a war on two fronts, yet he got greedy and did). Was BFF with Stalin yet in Mein Kampf said all Stalin needed to know and it all came true, Stalin studied his pompous book and knew Hitler would attack him eventually.

I still think it was horrendous. wipe out civilians to save lives in one sweep doesn't sit right with me. Even those who survived for generations suffered from it. Whether it be cancer or abnormalities. It was a war crime. But as they say the victorious makes the rules and everything else gets swept away. Case in point, wipe out Germany instead? Nope Pearl harbour. war would have been over far quicker if America stepped in before that instead of ignoring pleas for assistance far far before the end.

How else do you propose stopping an enemy so barbaric and so entrenched in a win at all costs mentality? those cunts would've fought to the last man and after the utter rape and devastation they wrought on Asia... well payback was a bitch and they fucking deserved it, if I had the nukes I would've turned Tokyo into a class desert.. go read Rape of Nanking or the exploits of unit 731 and then come back with your awwww but but we should've tried singing peace songs attitude.. Imperial Japan at the time where as bad if not worse than the Nazi's, a real blight on humanity.. Great bunch o lads now mind

 

[Ionian]

How else do you propose stopping an enemy so barbaric and so entrenched in a win at all costs mentality? those cunts would've fought to the last man and after the utter rape and devastation they wrought on Asia... well payback was a bitch and they fucking deserved it, if I had the nukes I would've turned Tokyo into a class desert.. go read Rape of Nanking or the exploits of unit 731 and then come back with your awwww but but we should've tried singing peace songs attitude.. Imperial Japan at the time where as bad if not worse than the Nazi's, a real blight on humanity.. Great bunch o lads now mind

Wow, an Irish man to say that. I always assumed you had more cop-on.

Quote me where I defended it please. Irishman to Irishman, instead of screaming insults quote the evidence in a polite manner. I will listen then.

I'm starting the clock, don't let me down bro. Or do you want me to repost 'As Gaeilge?'.

 

[RJMacready73]

Wow, an Irish man to say that. I always assumed you had more cop-on.

Quote me where I defended it please. Irishman to Irishman, instead of screaming insults quote the evidence in a polite manner. I will listen then.

I'm starting the clock, don't let me down bro. Or do you want me to repost 'As Gaeilge?'.

Hardly screamed insults ffs, ok we'll try a little more face to face pub talk and little less anonymous forum talk, i didn't say you defended it, the indiscriminate bombing doesn't sit well with you, i get that.. i grew up in Belfast we know a thing about indiscriminate bombings albeit on a slightly smaller scale ;-) but how else do you bring a country like Imperial Japan (note i say imperial Japan) to its knees? every time i hear someone question the nuking I don't hear a proposal on how it could've been done any other way, yes Japan was bate back to their homeland and had effectively lost the war but in order to get them to surrender a notion that simply wasn't in their collective conscious at that time you would've had to invade and that would've cost untold Allied lives and why should they when they had already sacrifced so many to get to that point? why sacrifice tens of thousands more when you could a: utilize the bomb, b: test the bomb and c: send a message to the world and any other upstart nation *cough Russia.. that knock this world warring shit on the head cause we have a massive stick!

 

[Catphish]

To me, this feels like the beginning of moves by an unofficial Russia/China axis.

85 years ago, the West turned a blind eye to the annexation of the Rhineland, Austria, and the Sudetenland.

Obviously, now is not then, but, so far, we seem rather toothless on Ukraine, and I doubt things will be any different with Taiwan, which I expect to be next (would love to be wrong, though).

My question is, will it end after Ukraine and Taiwan? If no real challenge is mounted by the West over those, would Chi/Rus be happy with that, or does Russia then go after more of its previous satellites, and China after new conquests south?

The only certainty of any of it, is who stands to gain. Watch those defense stocks.

 

[Ionian]

Hardly screamed insults ffs, ok we'll try a little more face to face pub talk and little less anonymous forum talk, i didn't say you defended it, the indiscriminate bombing doesn't sit well with you, i get that.. i grew up in Belfast we know a thing about indiscriminate bombings albeit on a slightly smaller scale ;-) but how else do you bring a country like Imperial Japan (note i say imperial Japan) to its knees? every time i hear someone question the nuking I don't hear a proposal on how it could've been done any other way, yes Japan was bate back to their homeland and had effectively lost the war but in order to get them to surrender a notion that simply wasn't in their collective conscious at that time you would've had to invade and that would've cost untold Allied lives and why should they when they had already sacrifced so many to get to that point? why sacrifice tens of thousands more when you could a: utilize the bomb, b: test the bomb and c: send a message to the world and any other upstart nation *cough Russia.. that knock this world warring shit on the head cause we have a massive stick!

Holy wall of text. I'd post that in Irish but you don't seem to be able to speak it. (No offense, I can barely myself).

I said what I said, read the responses and replied in a civil manner in what was an open thread. I didn't lose my Fionn McCool and mash the keyboard and slam POST!

You don't need God, your post needs an editor. I said what I said, read the thread ye wee bréagleanbaí. I didn't insult or swear at anyone. Don't make me Irish you again. (I'm joking).

 

[ManaByte]

 

[Razvedka]

Europe in general has been pretty lame in most of their responses for a long time. And it has emboldened Putin to some extent, for sure. But threatening to kill 10,000s of people to see your vision out, like Putin is doing, is wholly on him.

And the NATO expansion was never off the table, not agreed too. Beyond that, it's up to independent nations to make whatever treaty or agreement they want. If I was an Eastern European country or former Warsaw Pact nation that had to live under the hardships of the USSR I would also be looking for security to avoid being put back into that sphere.

Sorry, I just don't buy your argument that "if only Poland didn't join NATO then we wouldn't be ok this mess!". It's apologizing for Russia's bad behavior.



Well, that didn't happen so you don't need to make up fiction. Just because a nation borders another doesn't make it "their Mexico". Is China their Canada?

Concur with this. Yes, NATO inducting more members on Russia's doorstep is a major security concern from the Russia perspective.

However from literally all other perspectives, these ex Soviet satellites are sovereign nations free to make their own choices. The Russians were brutal and inept during the governance of the USSR so it's kind of clear why their former vassals would choose to distance themselves from their old master.

Even former French and British Empire colonies hate them less than much of the ex-combloc hates the Russians.

 

[ManaByte]

 

[Kraz]

Why have so many people fallen for Putin's bullshit?

Among the phantoms attracting flies is basic Strongman idealization. Powerful worship of a fantasy masculine ideal leading to repression of the realities.

 

[ManaByte]

Among the phantoms attracting flies is basic Strongman idealization. Powerful worship of a fantasy masculine ideal leading to repression of the realities.

That, and Twitter.

 

[Maiden Voyage]

Kremlin says a dramatic Security Council meeting on Ukraine was recorded in advance, after people realized a minister's watch showed the wrong time

Dmitry Peskov, the Kremlin's press secretary, said on Tuesday that recording meetings in advance wasn't unusual.

www.yahoo.com

 

[strange headache]

That, and Twitter.

This is the harsh reality of realpolitik, twitter got nothing on this.

 

[Liljagare]

Man, I hoped the people of Ukraine wouldn't have to go through this, but it seems prettty certain that they will.. :\

(Seems there was another false flag attempt during the night with 2 BMP's "crossing the border with 5 soldiers". Doesn't look like the BMP-70M Ukraine uses though, but the Russian BMP-70 vehicle that has a profile closer to the BTR-80 (i.e. with the engine deck being an obvious difference - angled on the Ukrainian vehicle, flat on the Russian one) and fits the pictures).

 

[Wheeljack539]

With Germany screwed Japan would have no allies, Italy was a nothing by that stage. Could have sued for peace then. What happened to the emperor after the war? He lived long but lost his power. Always found it weird how them invading China was basically a precursor to everything.

In the same respect, what did the west do then? Not much. Set the board for warfare with most countries waving their finger at them and Germany like they were bold children, they knew they couldn't go head on so started ramping up armies for what would be the inevitable conflict.

Britain and France: Holy fuck America we're getting screwed here, send help!
America: Not yet, maybe later. Have some supplies instead.

War could have been shorter. Was only after Pearl Harbour, years after the war started that America threw their hat in the ring properly.

The Asian mentality is very, very different from western. It looks the same on the surface level but the more you pull back and go into the culture it's like going to another planet.

It's already been mentioned here that the public viewed Emperor Hirohito as a God, a descendant from their sun god, Amaterasu. If he said to fight, they would fight. When I took Japanese classes in high school and college I was told of a village to which every inhabitant committed ritual suicide when Japan surrendered and the Americans landed as they thought that they would be pillaged and their women raped so 500+ people of men, women and children died by suicide to avoid that fate. That story was to drive into us just how different they think.

The island hopping campaign from Guadalcanal to Japan was another factor in just how ferocious those fights against the Japanese were and the image of how much worse the landings on actual Japanese soil would be. The only people that can top that type of fanaticism are the Muslim extremists in the mid-East.

I don't like that it happened the way it did but I do think it was the best of the horrible options that they had to end up saving lives in the end as fucked up as it was.

And if you really want a mind-bender there were those in the Imperial Army and Navy that wanted to fight to the last man after the bomb droppings that they were going to kidnap the Emperor before he could give the surrender.

 

[Romulus]

Hoping no WWIII.

But if we end up nuking each other, at least Russia hopefully kind of looks like Metro 2033 because that's a great series.

Thats my biggest issue. Russia is doing this knowing full well things could escalate to the point of no return. No regard for the rest of the world.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

If they are planning an attack what was the point to recognise the separatist regions? Achievement unlocked?

 

[NickFire]

If they are planning an attack what was the point to recognise the separatist regions? Achievement unlocked?

I believe that by recognizing them, it gave Putin his nonsense internal and external talking point of merely protecting the peace when they attack. In other words, the recognition was pure propaganda.

 

[Wheeljack539]

If they are planning an attack what was the point to recognise the separatist regions? Achievement unlocked?

Recognizing them legitimizes them as separate governments (from Ukraine) so the new states can then request "help" and allow Russia in without firing a shot as they are there to secure the "new" country's borders. It in theory also hand ties the other governments that oppose them due to the new governments request and tying everything up in paperwork/economic/negotiating muck to further muddy waters.

When asked from people I know who know a bit more on the subject I'm told the history there is incredibly complicated as has been mentioned here.

The question is will Ukraine take them back (by pen or by force) or recognize them as breakaways? Or if they do will they risk Russia playing the waiting game once more for Russian ethnic peoples in eastern Ukraine to follow suit again?

 

[RJMacready73]

Thats my biggest issue. Russia is doing this knowing full well things could escalate to the point of no return. No regard for the rest of the world.

Nukes where never ever brought to this table, leave the talk of nukes and ww3 to the tabloids so they can wind up the morons and simple folk, most rationale people know that no matter where this war goes itll never go full retard