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[chromhound]

Thank god Cardi B has finally weighed in.

Cardi B says she’s ‘not really’ on NATO or Russia’s side amid Ukraine crisis

Cardi B says she’s “really not” on either Russia or NATO’s side after making comments that war “should be the last thing” world leaders should be worrying about amid the crisis in Ukraine…

thehill.com

The queen has spoken

 

[titi_gamer]

I read that Ukraine holds a good chunk of some specific natural ressrouces, looking at the ranks in europe
I am no expert, just saw that in the web, please correct if needed, thanks

 

[IDKFA]

So Russian propaganda made you question if they are the bad guys? WTF?

No. That's not what I said. I said the extreme opposite of opinions made me question what was the truth. I haven't seen any middle ground. I did confirm in my post that I know RT news is the propaganda arm of the Russian government, so I know they're not to be fully trusted.

The situation is complex. It's not as binary as Russia = bad guys and the west = good guys for a lot of people. Speak to certain people who live in the Donbas region and they'll tell you that Russia are the heroes and saviours. Speak to others and they'll tell you Russia are the evil invaders.

To make my position clear, I don't agree with Russia or Putin's actions.

 

[Wildebeest]

Arguing that the middle ground must "hold more truth" is not logical at all.

 

[akimbo009]

No. That's not what I said. I said the extreme opposite of opinions made me question what was the truth. I haven't seen any middle ground. I did confirm in my post that I know RT news is the propaganda arm of the Russian government, so I know they're not to be fully trusted.

The situation is complex. It's not as binary as Russia = bad guys and the west = good guys for a lot of people. Speak to certain people who live in the Donbas region and they'll tell you that Russia are the heroes and saviours. Speak to others and they'll tell you Russia are the evil invaders.

To make my position clear, I don't agree with Russia or Putin's actions.

Both sides, amirite?

The situation has some complexities, but it's pretty obvious that Russia is in the wrong and has been for years when it comes to Ukraine. We don't need to hum and haw over that.

 

[strange headache]

Literally none of that excuses anything that Russia has done.

Who the f*ck is excusing anything here you dolt?
Understanding this conflict means also understanding the motives of the opposing force.

If you're unwilling to understand the whole context and the severity of this complex situation, then you cant have an informed opinion either. Lest you keep spouting twitter opinions like a moronic parrot:

You might want to read up on your history, a situation that your foreign diplomacy helped accentuate in the first place:

Just as the United States resolved in the aftermath of World War II to counter the Soviet Union and its global ambitions, Mr. Obama is focused on isolating President Vladimir V. Putin’s Russia by cutting off its economic and political ties to the outside world, limiting its expansionist ambitions in its own neighborhood and effectively making it a pariah state.

Mr. Obama has concluded that even if there is a resolution to the current standoff over Crimea and eastern Ukraine, he will never have a constructive relationship with Mr. Putin, aides said.

This is the reason why we can't have decent discussion about such issues, because of reductionist f*ckwits like you who put political allegiance over reason and pounce on everybody who tries to understand the whole picture.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

Foreign minister Dmytro Kuleba has requested to enter into the E.U.

Yeah, won't happen. Joining the EU is even more difficult than joining NATO.

Or are we provoking him by messing around in Ukraine.

In the case of Crimea it was Russia's only port to the black sea. Letting it get away get away would be worse for them than the US losing Hawaii. If geostrategic interests are valid, Russia's wars are valid. If they are not, neither were ours, in which case we have no moral highground.

What's up with Russia's apologists today, wtf lol. The only port to the Black Sea? Have you looked at the map lately? How about Russian invades China because they don't have access to the South China Sea?

 

[Little Mac]

I'm having a hard time understanding the ramifications. Can someone please find Ja Rule so we can make sense of all this?

 

[The_hunter]

Ban CS:Go and GTA:SA in Russia and they'll revolt overnight.

Hit them where it hurts most. Add dota 2 to that list.

 

[IDKFA]

Both sides, amirite?

No. Russia is clearly in the wrong here.

 

[OmegaSupreme]

Thank god Cardi B has finally weighed in.

Cardi B says she’s ‘not really’ on NATO or Russia’s side amid Ukraine crisis

Cardi B says she’s “really not” on either Russia or NATO’s side after making comments that war “should be the last thing” world leaders should be worrying about amid the crisis in Ukraine…

thehill.com

Who the hell put this deeply ignorant former sex worker and thief on a pedestal? Puke.

I thought I saw that troops are now being sent to the Baltics. Do they think Putin won't stop with Ukraine?

 

[Nobody_Important]

Who the f*ck is excusing anything here you dolt?
Understanding this conflict means also understanding the motives of the opposing force.

If you're unwilling to understand the whole context and the severity of this complex situation, then you cant have an informed opinion either. Lest you keep spouting twitter opinions like a moronic parrot:



You might want to read up on your history, a situation that your foreign diplomacy helped accentuate in the first place:



This is the reason why we can't have decent discussion about such issues, because of reductionist f*ckwits like you who put political allegiance over reason and pounce on everybody who tries to understand the whole picture.

I'm not doing this song and dance with you again. The thread was allowed only if it didn't get heated. If you can't have a discussion without throwing insults or getting intensely political about it then don't take part in it. Or at the very least leave me out of it by not responding to me.

 

[strange headache]

I'm doing this song and dance with you again. The thread was allowed only if it didn't get heated. If you can't have a discussion without throwing insults or getting intensely political about it then don't take part in it. Or at the very least leave me out of it.

You've literally accused my of excusing Russia's invasion!
No surprise that I don't react kindly to that, especially considering my recent visit to Poland and the Ukraine.

For the record, you were the one replying to me.
Might want to weigh your words more carefully instead of making baseless assumptions about other people in this thread.

 

[akimbo009]

Who the f*ck is excusing anything here you dolt?
Understanding this conflict means also understanding the motives of the opposing force.

If you're unwilling to understand the whole context and the severity of this complex situation, then you cant have an informed opinion either. Lest you keep spouting twitter opinions like a moronic parrot:



You might want to read up on your history, a situation that your foreign diplomacy helped accentuate in the first place:



This is the reason why we can't have decent discussion about such issues, because of reductionist f*ckwits like you who put political allegiance over reason and pounce on everybody who tries to understand the whole picture.

We can understand everything, and still come to the same conclusions that those with less information conclude.

There's nothing really to be said historically that adjusts any calculus here. Putin is unequivocally wrong, and trying to pull in sympathetic feelings by talking about irrelevant history is just a distraction.

 

[MrMephistoX]

If we look back through the smoldering ruins and this turns out to have been the prelude to WW3...well, it's been an honor, ladies and gents.

What’s your plan to transition GAF to papyrus or stone tablets?

 

[Taxexemption]

Yeah, won't happen. Joining the EU is even more difficult than joining NATO.

What's up with Russia's apologists today, wtf lol. The only port to the Black Sea? Have you looked at the map lately? How about Russian invades China because they don't have access to the South China Sea?

War is immoral, Putin is not significantly morally different than our leaders. He is a human being acting in what he believes his rational self interest is. If everyone had my attitude, there would be no more wars, therefore my position is universally preferable to others.

 

[strange headache]

Putin is unequivocally wrong, and trying to pull in sympathetic feelings by talking about irrelevant history is just a distraction.

Sympathetic feelings?

It is absolutely beyond me how anyone can think that I've been defending Russia, considering what I wrote. I just think that it is of paramount importance to understand the situation and the historic context that gave rise to it. Otherwise how are you supposed to formulate the correct response?
Nothing of that is "distraction".

 

[EviLore]

What’s your plan to transition GAF to papyrus or stone tablets?

Beating each other with sticks will suffice, I think.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

Putin is not significantly morally different than our leaders. He is a human being acting in what he believes his rational self interest is.

Putin is head of a kleptomaniac regime that steals from the state and the Russian people, enriching themselves in the process. He can do nothing for the rest of his days (his fortune is estimated at 150-200bln USD), but no - he has to fuck shit up.

 

[Nobody_Important]

You've literally accused my of excusing Russia's invasion!

No I didn't. Nowhere in my post did I say that. I said the things you posted don't excuse it. Not that you were excusing it. Two different things. You literally started your post off by saying you weren't defending Putin. So I was fully aware you weren't defending it. Just listing possible causes and context. I just went point by point to explain that despite the context from the Russia side of things it doesn't excuse or justify what Putin has done here.


Let's just take it down a few notches this one time and just discuss the topic.

 

[akimbo009]

War is immoral, Putin is not significantly morally different than our leaders. He is a human being acting in what he believes his rational self interest is. If everyone had my attitude, there would be no more wars, therefore my position is universally preferable to others.

Uhhh what? Are you going with "they are all bad, they are all the same" argument when discussing Putin? Sure, Jan.

Sympathetic feelings?

It is absolutely beyond me how anyone can think that I've been defending Russia, considering what I wrote. I just think that it is of paramount importance to understand the situation and the historic context that gave rise to it. Otherwise how are you supposed to formulate the correct response?
Nothing of that is "distraction".

I understand there is a lot that needs to known to draw a conclusion in most cases. However, this is pretty straightforward in terms of drawing the right conclusion. There isn't a whole lot going on here that's historically relevant to justify a war on a neighbor. And it isn't Russia's first go of this (e.g. Georgia), and most people recognize that they aren't good actors generally and worse to their neighbors.

 

[Nobody_Important]

Beating each other with sticks will suffice, I think.

So begins a new arms race.

 

[Taxexemption]

Putin is head of a kleptomaniac regime that steals from the state and the Russian people, enriching themselves in the process. He can do nothing for the rest of his days (his fortune is estimated at 150-200bln USD), but no - he has to fuck shit up.

No different than our leaders. Not one is good, not one.

 

[Nobody_Important]

No different than our leaders. Not one is good, not one.

There are varying levels of bad though.


Putin is on a whole other level of shit compared to other prominent world leaders. Except Winnie the Pooh. That guy is even worse than Putin.

 

[strange headache]

I understand there is a lot that needs to known to draw a conclusion in most cases. However, this is pretty straightforward in terms of drawing the right conclusion. There isn't a whole lot going on here that's historically relevant to justify a war on a neighbor. And it isn't Russia's first go of this (e.g. Georgia), and most people recognize that they aren't good actors generally and worse to their neighbors.

There is quite a bit going on here historically, important events that certainly have colored Russia's perception. If you want to understand the whole situation I recommend this overview by John J. Mearsheimer published in Foreign Affairs back in 2014.

Everything I said is completely relevant to this situation, least you want to accuse Foreign Affairs of being dilettantes and highly reputed political scientist John Mearsheimer a fraud.

 

[Taxexemption]

There are varying levels of bad though.


Putin is on a whole other level of shit compared to other prominent world leaders. Except Winnie the Pooh. That guy is even worse than Putin.

No. Ours are the same, maybe worse.

 

[Nobody_Important]

No. Ours are the same, maybe worse.

They aren't. But you are entitled to your opinion I guess.

 

[Taxexemption]

They aren't. But you are entitled to your opinion I guess.

They've never warmongered? No corruption at the expense of the average citizen?

 

[lukilladog]

Ah, the super powers at it again, gotta protect the interests of their rich.

 

[QSD]

Discussion about how bad Putin is always seem to forget to ask the counterfactual question - if not Putin, then who? Imagine what could have happened if Russia had gotten another Yeltsin instead of Putin. The Russian federation might well have splintered into several states, each with their own nuclear arsenal. Navalny, the current opposition leader, is also no dove, and in some aspects is more nationalistic even then Putin. If he were to gain power, he would most likely not even return the Crimea to Ukraine. The idea that Russia would be ruled by an 'enlightened' leader who does not seek expansion or a return to the glory of the Soviets seems like a distant utopia

In the end regardless of moral condemnation, we have to deal with Russia as it is, not as we believe it should be.

 

[Lukaku's First Touch]

They should ban every russian from setting foot on nato soil, also I bet the countries close to russia that aren't in nato yet are already writing up an application.

The fact that this russian maniac even mentioned the possibility of nuclear attack if nato stepped in... only reason his shithole country isn't in ruins yet is because of those.

 

[Ionian]

I read that Ukraine holds a good chunk of some specific natural ressrouces, looking at the ranks in europe

I am no expert, just saw that in the web, please correct if needed, thanks

I'm having a hard time understanding the ramifications. Can someone please find Ja Rule so we can make sense of all this?

Much like your usename, it got very quickly got outdated. A 4 cost yeti? Yeah that was a thing first launched.

The OG's, same as Starcraft.

Smashing that keyboard with APM, looking to the internet for help/ What happenedf to Day9 and his bro? Or Husky, he took the money and ran. Husky at least ran away, blamed it on his voice going. He lied, he was probably surprised as nobody cared. Hooked up with another YouTuber.

Aaand he went from Starcraft, to hooking up to what was massive money to silence.

 

[akimbo009]

There is quite a bit going on here historically, important events that certainly have colored Russia's perception. If you want to understand the whole situation I recommend this overview by John J. Mearsheimer published in Foreign Affairs back in 2014.

Everything I said is completely relevant to this situation, least you want to accuse Foreign Affairs of being dilettantes and highly reputed political scientist John Mearsheimer a fraud.

There's always "quite a bit of history". Doesn't change our reality that Putin has made one bad decision after another making what's happening any more justified. It's a curiosity, and I am glad Mearsheimer got a lot of his initial perceptions right. The again, it's a pretty good bet to say Russia has acted badly historically and will continue to do so.

His conclusions around Ukraine nuclear weapons, or their disarmament, is actually more interesting now not in relation to this circumstance but how it applies to Iran and N Korea. If this is your fate if you don't have them then there isn't a reasonable deterrence for others not to pursue them. A terrible conclusion, and again as a result of Russia's shitty behavior.

Discussion about how bad Putin is always seem to forget to ask the counterfactual question - if not Putin, then who? Imagine what could have happened if Russia had gotten another Yeltsin instead of Putin. The Russian federation might well have splintered into several states, each with their own nuclear arsenal. Navalny, the current opposition leader, is also no dove, and in some aspects is more nationalistic even then Putin. If he were to gain power, he would most likely not even return the Crimea to Ukraine. The idea that Russia would be ruled by an 'enlightened' leader who does not seek expansion or a return to the glory of the Soviets seems like a distant utopia

In the end regardless of moral condemnation, we have to deal with Russia as it is, not as we believe it should be.

No one is saying there is someone better waiting in the wings to run Russia. And if there is, it would be better discovered through free and fair elections versus autocratic dictatorship which Putin has put into place.

 

[Darkmakaimura]

Hoping no WWIII.

But if we end up nuking each other, at least Russia hopefully kind of looks like Metro 2033 because that's a great series.

 

[Taxexemption]

What are the two countries everyone regrets invading? Afghanistan, and Russia? It seems like a lot of people want to speedrun the decline of their empire. Bonus points if we wait till next winter to get involved.

 

[Nobody_Important]

Hoping no WWII.

But if we end up nuking each other, at least Russia hopefully kind of looks like Metro 2033 because that's a great series.

I wouldn't worry about it. Biden came out a couple of hours ago and made it abundantly clear that the US and NATO are only using troops to defend NATO territory. And Putin is not going to move into any NATO territory.

 

[Ionian]

I wouldn't worry about it. Biden came out a couple of hours ago and made it abundantly clear that the US and NATO are only using troops to defend NATO territory. And Putin is not going to move into any NATO territory.

Isn't that the point? Ukraine is being stopped in joining NATO? They are a buffer.

 

[FunkMiller]

War is immoral, Putin is not significantly morally different than our leaders. He is a human being acting in what he believes his rational self interest is.

Hark at Kremlin Kevin over here.

 

[poppabk]

Hoping no WWII.

But if we end up nuking each other, at least Russia hopefully kind of looks like Metro 2033 because that's a great series.

I've got some bad news, you may want to sit down. See there was this guy called Adolf ...

 

[Nobody_Important]

Isn't that the point? Ukraine is being stopped in joining NATO? They are a buffer.

Putin claims that is the point, but his hour long speech the other day showed that was just a pretense. He doesn't consider Ukraine to be a sovereign country and believes it rightfully belongs to Russia.


Regardless WW3 is not going to happen over Ukraine unless Putin loses what's left of his mind and attacks a NATO country directly.

 

[Dream-Knife]

Why does the west keep pushing NATO closer and closer to Russia 30 years after the Warsaw Pact ended? I think the MIC wants another war. Putin is in the right on this one, and fortunately for them the west is full of weak leaders now.

I just hope this doesn't go nuclear.

Beating each other with sticks will suffice, I think.

I can't wait to see DFs break down on cave paintings.

 

[MrMephistoX]

Putin claims that is the point, but his hour long speech the other day showed that was just a pretense. He doesn't consider Ukraine to be a sovereign country and believes it rightfully belongs to Russia.


Regardless WW3 is not going to happen over Ukraine unless Putin loses what's left of his mind and attacks a NATO country directly.

That’s the interesting thing about it though he’s invading a country that wants to be a part of NATO in order to prevent their membership from ever happening. Technically he could invade every other former Soviet satellite provided they aren’t a part of NATO and get off Scot free. Doubt he’ll do that since he’s not Stalin but even then the Soviets stopped at territory they took from the nazis and never went beyond that.

 

[FunkMiller]

Why does the west keep pushing NATO closer and closer to Russia 30 years after the Warsaw Pact ended? I think the MIC wants another war. Putin is in the right on this one, and fortunately for them the west is full of weak leaders now.

I just hope this doesn't go nuclear.

Don’t be so foolish. NATO didn’t budge until Russia begin a campaign of encroachment in the noughties. The illegal invasion of Crimea is what made NATO ramp up. Don’t join the throng of Putins’s useful idiots. We appear to have a few of them in here already.

 

[Dream-Knife]

Don’t be so foolish. NATO didn’t budge until Russia begin a campaign of encroachment in the noughties. The illegal invasion of Crimea is what made NATO ramp up. Don’t join the throng of Putins’s useful idiots. We appear to have a few of them in here already.

Russia invaded Crimea in 2014.
1999: Czech Republic, Hungary, and Poland
2004: Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia
2009: Albania, Croatia

 

[Nobody_Important]

That’s the interesting thing about it though he’s invading a country that wants to be a part of NATO in order to prevent their membership from ever happening. Technically he could invade every other former Soviet satellite provided they aren’t a part of NATO and get off Scot free. Doubt he’ll do that since he’s not Stalin but even then the Soviets stopped at territory they took from the nazis and never went beyond that.

The NATO thing and Ukraine are linked, but not in the way he claims. He believes that Ukraine belongs to Russia so he was going to do this eventually anyway. The NATO thing just ramped up the plans. He knew that once they were NATO he couldn't take the territory. So he chose to do this to prevent them joining NATO, but not because of the reasons that he initially gave.


He really showed his ass when he laid out the Russian Empire talk.

 

[Bladed Thesis]

Russia was willing to live with it until the Bukarest summit, when NATO annexed the Ukraine.

I'm sorry. What?

 

[Razvedka]

No. That's not what I said. I said the extreme opposite of opinions made me question what was the truth. I haven't seen any middle ground. I did confirm in my post that I know RT news is the propaganda arm of the Russian government, so I know they're not to be fully trusted.

They are not to be trusted at all. RT is the propaganda arm of the Kremlin facing 'outwards' (read: to non-Russians). I am sure there are many instances where they post factual things, but its a very 'fruit of the poisoned tree' situation for me with them.

As for general WWIII worries, nobody should be. NATO is not going to militarily intervene into the Ukraine. Sucks to be Ukraine, but the rest of the world is ok.

 

[strange headache]

There's always "quite a bit of history". Doesn't change our reality that Putin has made one bad decision after another making what's happening any more justified. It's a curiosity, and I am glad Mearsheimer got a lot of his initial perceptions right. The again, it's a pretty good bet to say Russia has acted badly historically and will continue to do so.

NATO and the EU have committed a lot of mistakes too, by ignoring the warnings by political and diplomatic experts over the past two decades. Heck, even Yeltsin was wary of NATO's expansion and made reference to the Two Plus Four Treaty pertaining to Germany’s reunification in 1990. That treaty was signed under the condition that a further expansion of the NATO zone into the East would be excluded. From a Russian perspective, NATO's eastward expansion is an act of aggression so they feel like they are defending themselves. Not to mention that Eastern-Ukraine has a majority of Russian sympathizers among the population.

History is the reason why Putin is feeling strong enough to make this bold move, a severely weakened EU, Eastern-European countries moving away from the West and inching closer to Russia, energy dependency prohibiting a strong response from Western-Europe. History is the reason why Germany is refusing to openly take a strong stance, being almost the only European country to not send any military to the Ukraine. Hence Klitschko's negative response:

“The behaviour of the German government leaves me speechless,” he told the newspaper Bild. “The defence ministry apparently hasn’t realised that we are confronted with perfectly equipped Russian forces that can start another invasion of Ukraine at any time. What kind of support will Germany send next, pillows?”

NATO's biggest mistake was believing that the cold war had truly ended, by recklessly backing Russia into a corner. The reason why Putin feels like he can pull this off now is because he believes that Europe's response will be quite timid. The sanctions that were imposed since Crimea's annexation have been toothless and didn't hurt Russia all that much.

Sure, Biden can flap his wings as much as he wants, but Putin knows that ultimately natural resources are more important than economy. He's also aware that as long as Germany remains reluctant, there won't be a unified strong response from the EU.

I'm sorry. What?

Bucharest Summit Declaration

1. NATO welcomes Ukraine’s and Georgia’s Euro-Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO. We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO. Both nations have made valuable contributions to Alliance operations. We welcome the democratic reforms in Ukraine and Georgia and look forward to free and fair parliamentary elections in Georgia in May. MAP is the next step for Ukraine and Georgia on their direct way to membership. Today we make clear that we support these countries’ applications for MAP. Therefore we will now begin a period of intensive engagement with both at a high political level to address the questions still outstanding pertaining to their MAP applications. We have asked Foreign Ministers to make a first assessment of progress at their December 2008 meeting. Foreign Ministers have the authority to decide on the MAP applications of Ukraine and Georgia.

 

[FunkMiller]

Russia invaded Crimea in 2014.
1999: Czech Republic, Hungary, and Poland
2004: Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia
2009: Albania, Croatia

Those are countries joining NATO, not NATO militarily expanding to threaten Russia.

So, your point is that Putin is justified in his actions because a lot of democratic countries voluntarily joined NATO because it granted them security, stability and reinforced their right to self determination?

Are you sat somewhere in Moscow, with your Lenin hat on?

 

[Fbh]

Thank god Cardi B has finally weighed in.

Cardi B says she’s ‘not really’ on NATO or Russia’s side amid Ukraine crisis

Cardi B says she’s “really not” on either Russia or NATO’s side after making comments that war “should be the last thing” world leaders should be worrying about amid the crisis in Ukraine…

thehill.com