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[MightyHedgehog]

Hmm...super popular games, like the CoDs and Halos, are both mainstream successes for the general player base and home to hardcore players...with some already being genre/series fans and some that turn into them with the newest installments. Some of you guys act as if people are simply born hardcore...obviously, you become hardcore by continuing to play but you started out at zero just like everyone else at some point. The biggest success stories in games know how to cater to the hardcore but still allow new people in with each new release.

 

[Balb]

I never considered games like Halo or Call of Duty "hardcore" games. I always thought of hardcore games as games like Dodonpachi, Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike etc.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

I never considered games like Halo or Call of Duty "hardcore" games. I always thought of hardcore games as games like Dodonpachi, Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike etc.

Those are niche genre titles held up by their own group of hardcore players. You can be hardcore just by focusing most of your playing time and effort into one game no matter what it is. A 'hardcore game', I think, is simply a way of saying that it's got a focus on the veteran player of that series or genre...and much less berth given to newbies.

 

[Balb]

Those are niche genre titles held up by their own group of hardcore players. You can be hardcore just by focusing most of your playing time and effort into one game no matter what it is. A 'hardcore game', I think, is simply a way of saying that it's got a focus on the veteran player of that series or genre...and much less berth given to newbies.

We're basically saying the same thing then.

 

[Xeke]

I only play flemcore games.

 

[ReyBrujo]

Personally, a game is hardcore when it has been created with the specialist audience in mind. That it adds features or tweaks to make it easier for those that are not specialists in the game/genre makes it more mainstream, yes, but not less hardcore. Otherwise, every single released game is born mainstream because the developers want everyone to buy it. Or it is hardcore because they all target an initial audience.

As a compromise, I will say the ads targeted the mainstream, and that it worked making it the biggest opening ever. However, I won't agree with those who think the ads are the main reason for hardcore gamers to buy the game. That isn't (shouldn't!) be the reason you buy a game.

 

[Fafalada]

Bioshock - Open World

What's next, original Wolfenstein 3d is open world game?

 

[Penguin]

I'm just gonna say I hate the distinction between hardcore/casual games because it seems that the terms describe more how people play the game and not what the game is, but people use it to describe a game.

 

[Mindlog]

I'm just gonna say I hate the distinction between hardcore/casual games because it seems that the terms describe more how people play the game and not what the game is, but people use it to describe a game.

agreed
I see hardcore/casuals playing the same games quite often
casuals normally outnumber hardcore
casuals play WoW

When you strip away casuals from a hardcore market you get -
The current JRPG market.
The current sim (racing/flight) market.
The current fighting game market.

etc
etc
etc

 

[jman2050]

Dividing games into two seperate distinctions with no real definition other than arbitrary inconsistent parameters is a horrible idea in the first place. It's like taking the colors purple, brown, orange, pink, and grey and calling them all "red" because you feel like it.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

I though JoshuaJSlone put this BS to rest last month. He posted data that shows 360 owners buy games at virtually the exact same rate as owners of the other consoles. I believe the number was 1 game per month per owner, for all 3 systems...I'll have to look, or maybe he'll show up and post it again. But whatever the number was, it was the same for all 3.

Ahhyes, that was combining the "weeks per system" stat with the number of games sold per system to get how many games each system owner bought per week. Using the numbers from September they did turn out nearly identical (about 0.09 games per week or 11 weeks per game), though they're not always that close--and without new total software or tie ratio data for this month I can't calculate new figures.

 

[Penguin]

Dividing games into two seperate distinctions with no real definition other than arbitrary inconsistent parameters is a horrible idea in the first place. It's like taking the colors purple, brown, orange, pink, and grey and calling them all "red" because you feel like it.

That's always been my problem as well, as far as I can tell, there doesn't seem to be any set rules for what differentiates the two groups nor do I think the groups even make sense, but that's a whole other discussion.

 

[poppabk]

I guess a demo you can play or the review in your favorite gaming site are more valuable than a 30'' announcement on TV for someone who knows what he wants. I remember reading MW2 was having record preorders. Do these come just from people who have seen the ads, or people who have played previous games or that have read the previews?

But demo's and reviews and previews are all part of the marketing - and don't neccesarily come cheap. You play the demo because you are interested in the game, you read the review because you are interested in the game. You have already seen the teaser videos, the screenshots, the E3 videos, the print ads, the ads in gamestores, the exclusive sneak peeks, the developer interviews, you've seen the TV ads. Record pre-orders and front loaded sales are a sign of a demand that has been carefully managed and propagated. Halo3's launch was an event, MW2's launch (unlike MW1) was an event.

 

[Parl]

That's always been my problem as well, as far as I can tell, there doesn't seem to be any set rules for what differentiates the two groups nor do I think the groups even make sense, but that's a whole other discussion.

Yeah, I've always disliked the terminology too. To begin with, now games like GTA and Madden are no longer "casual", my point being that the definitions change almost entirely based on what elitist gamers think.

A game like Wii Sports can be played pretty hardcore, same with something like NSMBW, despite it attracting so-called casual gamers. A casual game is a game that is only sometimes a game, sometimes not, therefore the use of the word is silly. Though ironically, some games aren't always a game when you're experiencing them, like MGS4 and FF, and other games heavily driven by non-play. These are casual games, though I see no point in labelling them as such.

 

[CadetMahoney]

Wow! But SonyGAF said over and over recently the 360 was dying and the PS3 had freight train momentum and it was only a matter of time before the streams crossed.

It is odd, though. MS is practically taking the year off and are lining up all their ducks for next year (tons of exclusives + Natal) while Sony threw everything but the kitchen sink out there this year and the 360 still comes out on top. I wouldn't have guessed it myself.

This month, more than any month, makes me wonder if consumer mindshare about brands as a whole has changed. You can throw into one of many that thought Microsoft was going to lose to Sony this Christmas season. The PS3 ads are on point, it's always had great games but Sony has done a much better job of communicating that to the public than years past. I think Microsoft may have officially dethroned Sony in the eyes of the majority. We shall see if this is for certain next month.

Probably, but i'm guessing the "bu-but worldwide figures" clique will beg to differ/

 

[legend166]

I believe hardcore gamers are more numerous than what we think. The Xbox 360 is entering the mainstream, the PlayStation is still fighting to be recognized as a mainstream unit. If most of the units have been sold to the mainstream, non specialized gamers, then I can't find an explanation about why the industry cares so much about the hardcore players, being them just a fraction of the consoles available.

My original point was that even without such a heavy advertisement, it would have sold probably as good as Halo 3 in the Xbox 360 alone. There were mainstream sales, of course. Every game has them. But I think, in the case of games, the main amount comes after the initial burst of hardcore sales (when John Casual Doe buys the game by recommendation of Bob Casual Jones instead of Louie Fanatic Smith).

I believe the exact opposite, really, but I guess it depends on how you define the audiences.

What's your definition of the 'hardcore' consumer? Because I'd bet the vast majority of the MW2 consumers are guys who buy maybe 4-5 games a year. At most. They're no different to the Wii crowd that buys 4-5 games a year that everyone on here ridicules. Two sides of the same coin. Think about it - the Xbox 360 has a great tie ratio, but it's still only what, 8 or 9? Over four years. So maybe my 4-5 games a year stat is overestimating it. If 'hardcore' gamers were more plentiful, you'd think that would be a lot higher, no? The 'hardcore' gamer would buy more than 8 games a year.

Does anyone have the lifetime tie ratio of the PS2?

I honestly think the best way to seperate 'hardcore' and 'mainstream' consumers is simply by the amount of content they purchase. Trying to do it by what games they play is foolish, because as people as said it's entirely subjective. Someone might put 100 hours into Wii Sports Resort, and someone might put 100 hours into MW2.

 

[sinseers]

Lack of mass-market appeal.

Uncharted 2 is what happens when only the enthusiast market is interested in your game. Not that that's a bad thing when this enthusiast market numbers a million+, but it takes quite a bit more than simply marking off stuff from a checklist to get into that upper tier. A lot of it is just plain dumb luck.

I can also imagine quite a few people still viewing UC as a male version of Tomb Raider (Which at its core, it probably is), a game that many see as a played out franchise. It's sad for UC to be associated with TR, being how much better a game UC is, but those are the breaks I guess.

 

[sinseers]

Damn, I never thought the game will do this bad, specially after the first one doing that good...

I plead guilty your honor. I want RE: DSC, but just gotten up off my arse and purchased it. Same for DS:E and Muramasa ;o(. When it comes to Wii 3rd party games it seems that I am a procrastinator.

 

[Kenka]

I honestly think the best way to seperate 'hardcore' and 'mainstream' consumers is simply by the amount of content they purchase. Trying to do it by what games they play is foolish, because as people as said it's entirely subjective. Someone might put 100 hours into Wii Sports Resort, and someone might put 100 hours into MW2.

Really, I appreciated your classification. It seems relevant compared to our current blurry definitions.

 

[dolemite]

Is Batman AA (either version) really outselling Uncharted 2? That's quite a surprise.

 

[Spirit Icana]

Wii sales will be more interesting to observe after the holidays once families all come together for Christmas to play games with the kids and have fun. The new Super Mario Bros. game should be able to attract a group of people that Wii Sports and Wii Fit have not.

 

[boiled goose]

I believe the exact opposite, really, but I guess it depends on how you define the audiences.

What's your definition of the 'hardcore' consumer? Because I'd bet the vast majority of the MW2 consumers are guys who buy maybe 4-5 games a year. At most. They're no different to the Wii crowd that buys 4-5 games a year that everyone on here ridicules. Two sides of the same coin. Think about it - the Xbox 360 has a great tie ratio, but it's still only what, 8 or 9? Over four years. So maybe my 4-5 games a year stat is overestimating it. If 'hardcore' gamers were more plentiful, you'd think that would be a lot higher, no? The 'hardcore' gamer would buy more than 8 games a year.

Does anyone have the lifetime tie ratio of the PS2?

I honestly think the best way to seperate 'hardcore' and 'mainstream' consumers is simply by the amount of content they purchase. Trying to do it by what games they play is foolish, because as people as said it's entirely subjective. Someone might put 100 hours into Wii Sports Resort, and someone might put 100 hours into MW2.

best definition so far.

A gamer that buys more games will also tend to buy some of the less mainstream games. (because they buy more than just the big hits)

Wii sales will be more interesting to observe after the holidays once families all come together for Chrismas to play games with the kids and have fun. The new Super Mario Bros. game should be able to attract a group of people that Wii Sports and Wii Fit have not.

January for wii has always been a terrible month for hardware because of supply constraints. maybe they get a YOY increase this time. software should be good though. that is probably why reggie included Jan NPD in his prediction just to be safe.

 

[jedimike]

best definition so far.

A gamer that buys more games will also tend to buy some of the less mainstream games. (because they buy more than just the big hits)

That was a good measuring stick last gen, but not this gen. I spent more money on digital distribution than I did at retail, which isn't reflected in the tie ratio.

 

[elrechazado]

Is Batman AA (either version) really outselling Uncharted 2? That's quite a surprise.

handily

 

[Shurs]

Is Batman AA (either version) really outselling Uncharted 2? That's quite a surprise.

It's Batman. The character is an icon.

 

[yankeeforever2]

xxx (WII) CALL OF DUTY: MODERN WARFARE: REFLEX - 72,000 ~ 90,000
My store hasn't sold a damn copy:lol , pretty good for a cheap cash in.

 

[elrechazado]

It's Batman. The character is an icon.

It's a good game. If anyone said a licensed game based on superman, batman, or wolverine (we had one of those, remember?) would be a huge sales success and a goty contender last year, you'd have been laughed out of the room. All of this post success "well it's batman, of course it sold a ton" ignores just about the entire history of licensed games, even batman ones specifically.

 

[Shurs]

It's a good game. If anyone said a licensed game based on superman, batman, or wolverine (we had one of those, remember?) would be a huge sales success and a goty contender last year, you'd have been laughed out of the room. All of this post success "well it's batman, of course it sold a ton" ignores just about the entire history of licensed games, even batman ones specifically.

I didn't mean to take away from the quality of the game. If you told a kid that they could have either a high quality game where they played as Batman or a high quality game where they played as Nathan Drake, I think the most would choose to play as Batman, and the majority of them wouldn't know Nathan Drake from Adam.

 

[elrechazado]

I didn't mean to take away from the quality of the game. If you told a kid that they could have either a high quality game where they played as Batman or a high quality game where they played as Nathan Drake, I think the most would choose to play as Batman, and the majority of them wouldn't know Nathan Drake from Adam.

I agree with that, it's the "quality game" that has historically been missing from licensed properties.

 

[Massa]

handily

What? Combined, sure, but neither version of Batman beats Uncharted 2 sales handily.

 

[Shurs]

I agree with that, it's the "quality game" that has historically been missing from licensed properties.

You're spot on. I had no expectations for Arkham Asylum and was very pleasantly surprised at how good of a game it was. Also, it's possible that Batman: Arkham Asylum initially faced an uphill battle of perception due to it being a licensed game, but once the reviews and buzz began to show the high quality of the product, it made it a very attractive game.

 

[clashfan]

Is Batman AA (either version) really outselling Uncharted 2? That's quite a surprise.

Why is it surprising? Alot of people consider it a better game.

 

[Little Green Yoda]

What's your definition of the 'hardcore' consumer? Because I'd bet the vast majority of the MW2 consumers are guys who buy maybe 4-5 games a year. At most. They're no different to the Wii crowd that buys 4-5 games a year that everyone on here ridicules. Two sides of the same coin. Think about it - the Xbox 360 has a great tie ratio, but it's still only what, 8 or 9? Over four years. So maybe my 4-5 games a year stat is overestimating it. If 'hardcore' gamers were more plentiful, you'd think that would be a lot higher, no? The 'hardcore' gamer would buy more than 8 games a year.

I guess I'm a casual gamer with niche tastes.

 

[elohel]

Why is it surprising? Alot of people consider it a better game.

also it is on three platforms

i dont really think it had to do with reception that much

and do you mean the game was better received critically or? just from people you know?

this is a surprise to me, ive always heard of uncharted 2 being better received

 

[jman2050]

I guess I'm a casual gamer with niche tastes.

That's entirely possible.

 

[Haunted]

also it is on three platforms

i dont really think it had to do with reception that much

and do you mean the game was better received critically or? just from people you know?

this is a surprise to me, ive always heard of uncharted 2 being better received

clashfan is a known troll, disregard him.

 

[larcha]

.

 

[elrechazado]

http://www.loliamspamming.com/

wow, never seen one of these guys on gaf before

 

[Shurs]

spam

Are you fucking serious?

 

[ZeroRay]

.

Uh...see ya?

 

[crazy monkey]

free spam

:lol :lol :lol

 

[Psychotext]

wow, never seen one of these guys on gaf before

It's happened a couple of times. I think last time some poor sap had clearly downloaded a virus or something because prior to the spamstorm they were a pretty normal poster.

 

[legend166]

I guess I'm a casual gamer with niche tastes.

Well, I'm not saying it's some hard and fast rule that can accurately classify every single person. You're never going to catch everyone when you're dealing with binary classifications. But I just think if we are going to attempt to pigeon hole people into this 'hardcore' and 'casual' groups, doing it through how many games they purchase it a much better metric than by what games they buy.

 

[Joel Was Right]

I'm just wondering what the relevance of titles like God of War and Gran Turismo will have in terms of hardware sales. That target demographic most likely own the console now. The price is perfect and the software library is fantastic. I just can't see a huge spike of hardware sales when those games are released, and if so, if they would continue throughout the year

 

[fernoca]

Dividing games into two seperate distinctions with no real definition other than arbitrary inconsistent parameters is a horrible idea in the first place. It's like taking the colors purple, brown, orange, pink, and grey and calling them all "red" because you feel like it.

So true.

Many people that around here are considered as "casuals" because they only play Call of Duty..or Madden; are in some way "hardcore Call of Duty and Madden players". games that you can give to any of the self-proclamed hardcore gamers around here, and they just suck at playing them...or now the new term of "bro gamer"...

If anything a problem around here and many places..magazines..websites is that the term "casual" is used as an insult or a degrading form of gaming....yet this same "casuals" can spend hundreds of hours in one game, while some of the hardcores can't even bother to finish a 10 hour game...and spend more time buying games and arguing about them instead of playing them.

 

[Shurs]

I'm just wondering what the relevance of titles like God of War and Gran Turismo will have in terms of hardware sales. That target demographic most likely own the console now. The price is perfect and the software library is fantastic. I just can't see a huge spike of hardware sales when those games are released, and if so, if they would continue throughout the year

God of War should have no effect on hardware sales.

In America, Gran Turismo will possibly give a small bump, nothing more.

 

[Chrange]

God of War should have no effect on hardware sales.

I don't know how many of the big God of War fans have a PS3 already though. I thought the GoW collection was going to sell big because of those guys, but it did a lot less than I'd expected. Maybe those fans are still waiting?

 

[GrotesqueBeauty]

I don't know how many of the big God of War fans have a PS3 already though. I thought the GoW collection was going to sell big because of those guys, but it did a lot less than I'd expected. Maybe those fans are still waiting?

I like God of War, but not enough to pay $40 to replay them in HD again, especially when there are so many new games I can't even afford.

 

[Unison]

xxx (WII) CALL OF DUTY: MODERN WARFARE: REFLEX - 72,000 ~ 90,000
My store hasn't sold a damn copy:lol , pretty good for a cheap cash in.

I think it's a pretty capable port of an insanely popular game. I'd say it's more a case of giving people what they want then ripping them off with a cash-in. The online mode would have been stripped out if they truly wanted to rape folks.

 

[charlequin]

I'm just wondering what the relevance of titles like God of War and Gran Turismo will have in terms of hardware sales. That target demographic most likely own the console now. The price is perfect and the software library is fantastic. I just can't see a huge spike of hardware sales when those games are released, and if so, if they would continue throughout the year

God of War is not actually a tremendously popular series. It will have no effect on hardware.

All impressions point to GT being in slight decline specifically, and racing being in hella major decline in the US in general, so I personally am doubtful it will have a big effect here.