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[angrod14]

I guess I have a question for you:

Why do you not consider the Switch a console?

It’s not that I don’t consider it a console; the thing is the Switch is fundamentally a handheld/mobile device. The fact that it’s ARM is expected.

PS and Xbox, on the other hand, are not handhelds.

 

[ReBurn]

It’s not that I don’t consider it a console; the thing is the Switch is fundamentally a handheld/mobile device. The fact that it’s ARM is expected.

PS and Xbox, on the other hand, are not handhelds.

ARM is expected because it's handheld is a bit puzzling. My Steam deck is handheld and every bit as mobile as my Switch, but it isn't ARM.

 

[mrBarrelNut]

What benefit do you imagine there’d be from switching to ARM? There’s nothing magical about ARM that makes it dramatically better suited for consoles.

Lower power consumption.

Consoles have a thermal budget of roughly 200W. Maybe a bit more. Any savings in CPU side can be used to make the GPU, and thus the whole console, more powerful.

 

[winjer]

Lower power consumption.

Consoles have a thermal budget of roughly 200W. Maybe a bit more. Any savings in CPU side can be used to make the GPU, and thus the whole console, more powerful.

ISA has little to no bearing on power usage.

 

[DaleinCalgary]

No, they need to keep it simple.

 

[Drew1440]

To be fair I am still hoping we abandon x86-64 even for Desktop PCs and go ARM all the way, or invent something else.
I feel like x86 is so bloated, we should've moved on from it years ago already.

They're already removing older parts of X86 that are no longer needed, AMD already removed 3DNow! from their Zen CPU's, wont be long before 16/32bit ISA support is deprecated.

 

[WhiteWaterM00se]

I say 100% for next gen.

MS already put the Surface team in charge of designing next Xbox. It will be portable or have a portable component. MS has already commented on experimenting with an ARM version of windows.


MS will figure out limited BC, and rerelease old games updated for ARM to fill in release schedule gaps.

Sony will be forced to go ARM and will also likely have a home version and portable version. Sony will abandon VR.

Sony like MS will use this lack of full bc as an opportunity to release older titles that have been updated for ARM. Going the Nintendo route with releasing older titles again and again for maximum value.

 

[SHA]

We want powerfull machines, we don't want shiny colorful stickers for known brands.

 

[MayauMiao]

I say no chance, especially if they want to keep BC

 

[WhiteWaterM00se]

We want powerfull machines, we don't want shiny colorful stickers for known brands.

I find this a false flag argument. Really, how much better do you want the graphics verses power consumption. Are you going to have a machine that uses power like a refrigerator?

You are coming in to a world where most households won’t be able to afford multiple consoles, let alone a home. Energy consumption will be an issue.

The console market is not expanding like everyone predicted, they will look to grow organically by trying to bring in mobile players. Easiest way to do this, make games flows across all devices including mobile. This means ARM.

 

[SHA]

I find this a false flag argument. Really, how much better do you want the graphics verses power consumption. Are you going to have a machine that uses power like a refrigerator?

You are coming in to a world where most households won’t be able to afford multiple consoles, let alone a home. Energy consumption will be an issue.

The console market is not expanding like everyone predicted, they will look to grow organically by trying to bring in mobile players. Easiest way to do this, make games flows across all devices including mobile. This means ARM.

I get what you said but let's not pretend that mobile is evolving and not in constant state.

 

[justiceiro]

You guys are forgetting how bc is far from being standard. Switch doesn't have, and this didn't impacted it's sales.

 

[Topher]

You guys are forgetting how bc is far from being standard. Switch doesn't have, and this didn't impacted it's sales.

Not really a good comparison when Switch was coming off of Wii U and backward compatibility wasn't much of a concern at all. Xbox and PS gamers are going to expect their game library to be brought forward into the next generation at this point. This is especially important for PS5 as orphaning that back catalog of games will make it much easier for gamers to consider other options for console. That's where the importance of backward compatibility really comes into play.

 

[DonkeyPunchJr]

Not really a good comparison when Switch was coming off of Wii U and backward compatibility wasn't much of a concern at all. Xbox and PS gamers are going to expect their game library to be brought forward into the next generation at this point. This is especially important for PS5 as orphaning that back catalog of games will make it much easier for gamers to consider other options for console. That's where the importance of backward compatibility really comes into play.

Plus let’s be honest, the majority of PS6 games will be cross gen. The less demanding games will have a single version that runs on PS6 + PS5 (and maybe PS4).

 

[Topher]

Plus let’s be honest, the majority of PS6 games will be cross gen. The less demanding games will have a single version that runs on PS6 + PS5 (and maybe PS4).

Definitely. Being able to leverage the prior gen install base is going to boost revenue versus an ARM port where Sony very well may find themselves in a slow adoption rate much like they did going from PS2 to PS3. Early PS3 sales were so bad that Sony combined PS2, PSP and PS3 numbers in their quarterly reports.

 

[WhiteWaterM00se]

I get what you said but let's not pretend that mobile is evolving and not in constant state.

I agree with you

I look at things like Fortnite, Minecraft, NBA 2k, RE4R, Retro Bowl, Oregon Trail, Pokemon TCG, Genshin, Honkai, FF pixel remasters, as games the will be a template for games in the next gen.

Games that can be ported across all devices Regardless of type Of device.

 

[SScorpio]

They're already removing older parts of X86 that are no longer needed, AMD already removed 3DNow! from their Zen CPU's, wont be long before 16/32bit ISA support is deprecated.

I thought the TPM modules used that to interface. People created adapters that connect to the headers on modern motherboards and have successfully ran ISA sound cards under pure MSDOS.

 

[Solidus_T]

PS2 already used RISC architecture, so it is a possibility. Those here saying that it would present an obstacle to backwards compatibility are likely not aware that the PS2 was already RISC based. Regarding ARM or other RISC architectures, I think RISC V for consoles would allow even higher clocks than ARM

 

[Topher]

PS2 already used RISC architecture, so it is a possibility. Those here saying that it would present an obstacle to backwards compatibility are likely not aware that the PS2 was already RISC based. Regarding ARM or other RISC architectures, I think RISC V for consoles would allow even higher clocks than ARM

Pretty sure most here are talking BC in terms of PS4 and PS5.

 

[BacklashWave534]

ARM is the new trigger word for PC fanboys…and perhaps now console warriors?

I think it’s entirely likely, especially given ARM’s cheaper manufacturing process.

Yeah, we will just throw out 30+ years of backward compatability for some efficency gains. This is just a low IQ comment all around.

 

[Solidus_T]

Pretty sure most here are talking BC in terms of PS4 and PS5.

My point is that it would be possible, but not natively. It would require the development of an emulator much like the PS1 and PS2 emulators that existed on the PS3

 

[justiceiro]

Not really a good comparison when Switch was coming off of Wii U and backward compatibility wasn't much of a concern at all. Xbox and PS gamers are going to expect their game library to be brought forward into the next generation at this point. This is especially important for PS5 as orphaning that back catalog of games will make it much easier for gamers to consider other options for console. That's where the importance of backward compatibility really comes into play.

Like half Nintendo games on switch are Wii u ports. People are stupid, they will gladly rebuy all their games full price for a bump on resolution. They get mad if they can't, actually.

 

[Topher]

Like half Nintendo games on switch are Wii u ports. People are stupid, they will gladly rebuy all their games full price for a bump on resolution. They get mad if they can't, actually.

The Wii U sold so poorly that those ports were primarily sold for the first time to Switch gamers. That's obvious in the fact that 117 million Switch units were sold vs only 13 million Wii U.

I think if PS5 lacked PS4 compatibility then a heck of a lot more folks would have been eyeing Xbox this gen as there would be literally nothing to keep them from jumping. Phil Spencer said as much when he said last gen was the worst gen to lose since people have large investments in their gaming libraries that they want to bring forward into a new gen. Same will be true for PS6.

 

[SScorpio]

I think if PS5 lacked PS4 compatibility then a heck of a lot more folks would have been eyeing Xbox this gen as there would be literally nothing to keep them from jumping. Phil Spencer said as much when he said last gen was the worst gen to lose since people have large investments in their gaming libraries that they want to bring forward into a new gen. Same will be true for PS6.

I can definately agree with this. I'm already bummed that i went PS3 and have a lot of content locked there. I rebought some digital 360 stuff that never made it to PC but is backwards compatible on the One/Series consoles.

 

[DonkeyPunchJr]

PS2 already used RISC architecture, so it is a possibility. Those here saying that it would present an obstacle to backwards compatibility are likely not aware that the PS2 was already RISC based. Regarding ARM or other RISC architectures, I think RISC V for consoles would allow even higher clocks than ARM

“RISC vs CISC” is kind of a meaningless distinction nowadays. That’s not the barrier to backwards compatibility. Any modern CPU architecture can emulate any other.

The question is whether the hardware itself will be backwards compatible (like how PS5 and XSX work) or whether it will require emulation (like how Xbox One and Xbox 360 did it). Obviously if they switch to ARM then hardware BC is out of the question (unless they do something wacky like including the previous gen chip inside for BC purposes, like PS2 and first gen PS3 did)

 

[SantaC]

Arm is coming.. If AMD doesn't get its head out it's ass RiSC V will walk all over them

Lol amd (ati)used risc in gamecube

 

[SantaC]

ARM is the new trigger word for PC fanboys…and perhaps now console warriors?

I think it’s entirely likely, especially given ARM’s cheaper manufacturing process.

ARM will never be good enough for high powered consoles at a good price.

Doesnt 1500 euro iphone 15 run RE4 in 720p?

 

[JohnnyFootball]

If it gives us lower cost, lower heat (quieter), and performance why would you not want ARM?

People have these little things called digital libraries that they would like to keep compatible.

I am amazied at how often this has to be explained to people.

 

[JohnnyFootball]

To be fair I am still hoping we abandon x86-64 even for Desktop PCs and go ARM all the way, or invent something else.
I feel like x86 is so bloated, we should've moved on from it years ago already.

This I agree with. At some point we will have to move on from x86-64

 

[mrBarrelNut]

Running x86 binaries on ARM is already possible in Windows 11 (on ARM). Sure, you'll need an emulation layer, but that is already something Microsoft has in both Windows and Xbox. You've been able to run Xbox 360 PowerPC games natively on Xbox One/Series consoles for years.

I bet Microsoft will be using ARM in nextbox while maintaining full compatibility with PowerPC and x68 binaries.

 

[MaKTaiL]

No because of BC.

 

[MetalRain]

They will use whatever designs AMD/Intel/Nvidia/Qualcomm has available and makes most sense. Designing fully custom chip is expensive and companies need to make money.

 

[gothmog]

People have these little things called digital libraries that they would like to keep compatible.

I am amazied at how often this has to be explained to people.

So buy something that has BC. It's not exclusive. Not everyone cares about their libraries.

 

[SScorpio]

So buy something that has BC. It's not exclusive. Not everyone cares about their libraries.

Not everyone likes giving Nintendo money for the exact same games they own over and over again.

 

[DonkeyPunchJr]

ARM will never be good enough for high powered consoles at a good price.

Doesnt 1500 euro iphone 15 run RE4 in 720p?

There’s nothing about ARM that makes it too expensive or unsuitable for consoles. Apple M3 even beats the 14900K in single threaded performance.

ARM is just an instruction set. That instruction set can be used in any CPU design from a low end smartphone to a high performance workstation. Same with x86. The fact that something uses ARM doesn’t tell you anything interesting about its performance.

 

[winjer]

PS2 already used RISC architecture, so it is a possibility. Those here saying that it would present an obstacle to backwards compatibility are likely not aware that the PS2 was already RISC based. Regarding ARM or other RISC architectures, I think RISC V for consoles would allow even higher clocks than ARM

But all modern CPUS are RISC based architectures.
Even X86 is RISC, ever since the P5. It does have a bigger decode stage, but after that, it's execution pipeline is RISC.

 

[gothmog]

Not everyone likes giving Nintendo money for the exact same games they own over and over again.

I agree but that's why I've stopped giving Nintendo as much attention as I did in the past.

 

[Solidus_T]

But all modern CPUS are RISC based architectures.
Even X86 is RISC, ever since the P5. It does have a bigger decode stage, but after that, it's execution pipeline is RISC.

No it isn't. X86 is an instruction set and architecture based off of CISC. RISC is what ARM, which stands for Advanced RISC Machines, is based off of.

 

[winjer]

No it isn't. X86 is an instruction set and architecture based off of CISC. RISC is what ARM, which stands for Advanced RISC Machines, is based off of.

Only the fetch and decode are CISC. The rest of the pipeline is RISC. It had been so for a long time.

 

[DonkeyPunchJr]

No it isn't. X86 is an instruction set and architecture based off of CISC. RISC is what ARM, which stands for Advanced RISC Machines, is based off of.

You seem to be confused. x86 isn’t “based off of CISC”. CISC isn’t an instruction set and neither is RISC. Those are design philosophies, and x86 internally is very RISC-like.

Here’s a good article about it:

Ars Technica: RISC vs. CISC: the Post-RISC Era - Page 1 - (10/1999)

Ars Technica. Power users and the tools they love, without computing religion. Oh yeah, did we mention we are unassailable computing enthusiasts.

archive.arstechnica.com

1. RISC was not a specific technology as much as it was a design strategy that developed in reaction to a particular school of thought in computer design. It was a rebellion against prevailing norms--norms that no longer prevail in today's world. Norms that I'll talk about.​
2. "CISC" was invented retroactively as a catch-all term for the type of thinking against which RISC was a reaction.​
3. We now live in a "post-RISC" world, where the terms RISC and CISC have lost their relevance (except to marketing departments and platform advocates). In a post-RISC world, each architecture and implementation must be judged on its own merits, and not in terms of a narrow, bipolar, compartmentalized worldview that tries to cram all designs into one of two "camps."​

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

BC is much more of an issue changing CPU architectures. Moving to ARM is going to require ports of existing games whereas sticking with whatever iteration of the next RDNA can be handle BC at the system level just as it was going from PS4 to PS5. ARM would also require more effort porting console games to PC.

Only for middle-ware providers though in most cases.

If Epic invests in making it easier to deploy across ARM and x86, then it becomes more or less trivial for game devs using UE

 

[scarlet0pimp]

It may happen, all depends on how much more value they can get out of it vs the current AMD deal.
I think I read Microsoft hired 3 guys who worked on the Apple cpus, so maybe Microsoft fancy making a laptop using their own chips, windows for Arm is apparently coming along quite nicely.
Perhaps they could also use their own chips in a console too.

 

[Chiggs]

Yeah, we will just throw out 30+ years of backward compatability for some efficency gains. This is just a low IQ comment all around.

The only low IQ comment around here is yours, and it's clear you know zippity-fucking-doo-da about any of this. Given some of your previous dim-bulb comments, I shouldn't be surprised.

But yeah, long live X86 with its creaky old architecture that requires CPU transistors that barely anyone uses! Now that's smart-thinking!

And as if backwards compatibility would suddenly just go out the window with a transition. You fucking drama queen. Get real.

Don't bother with logic around here. All that's relevant is MUH PC USES X86!!!! HRRRRRRHHHHH!!

 

[SHA]

PS2 already used RISC architecture, so it is a possibility. Those here saying that it would present an obstacle to backwards compatibility are likely not aware that the PS2 was already RISC based. Regarding ARM or other RISC architectures, I think RISC V for consoles would allow even higher clocks than ARM

Secret sauce or lazy sauce, every sauce is a great sauce.

 

[DonkeyPunchJr]

The only low IQ comment around here is yours, and it's clear you know zippity-fucking-doo-da about any of this. Given some of your previous dim-bulb comments, I shouldn't be surprised.

But yeah, long live X86 with its creaky old architecture that requires CPU transistors that barely anyone uses! Now that's smart-thinking!

And as if backwards compatibility would suddenly just go out the window with a transition. You fucking drama queen. Get real.



Don't bother with logic around here. All that's relevant is MUH PC USES X86!!!! HRRRRRRHHHHH!!

This is a very ignorant comment. The “wasted” transistors/performance penalty for x86 are totally negligible nowadays. This isn’t the 1990s anymore.

ARM or x86? ISA Doesn’t Matter

For the past decade, ARM CPU makers have made repeated attempts to break into the high performance CPU market so it’s no surprise that we’ve seen plenty of articles, videos and discussions about ARM’s effort, and many of these pieces focus on differences between the two instruction set...

chipsandcheese.com

 

[RagnarokIV]

I think Sony and Nintendo will be all ARM.

Microsoft will go LEG and run the fuck out of the battle.

 

[Silver Wattle]

No, the advantage to ARM is massively diminished/eliminated once you go past 15W.
The deal Sony and MS get from AMD is extremely competitive, they might save a little money but then have to do everything themselves, and still need to get a beefy GPU, of which ARM has none.

AMD is an all in one solution that sells the chip as a bundle package like Microcentre.

Also, stop talking about the ISA, it makes no difference and hasn't for several years.

 

[Insane Metal]

I don't see it, but who knows.

 

[SScorpio]

The only low IQ comment around here is yours, and it's clear you know zippity-fucking-doo-da about any of this. Given some of your previous dim-bulb comments, I shouldn't be surprised.

But yeah, long live X86 with its creaky old architecture that requires CPU transistors that barely anyone uses! Now that's smart-thinking!

And as if backwards compatibility would suddenly just go out the window with a transition. You fucking drama queen. Get real.



Don't bother with logic around here. All that's relevant is MUH PC USES X86!!!! HRRRRRRHHHHH!!

Man, an ETA Prime video with another fastest thing ever. This time a $1000 ARM Mac that's running the same emulators a $400 x86 Steam Deck can.

 

[Chiggs]

This is a very ignorant comment. The “wasted” transistors/performance penalty for x86 are totally negligible nowadays. This isn’t the 1990s anymore.

ARM or x86? ISA Doesn’t Matter

For the past decade, ARM CPU makers have made repeated attempts to break into the high performance CPU market so it’s no surprise that we’ve seen plenty of articles, videos and discussions about ARM’s effort, and many of these pieces focus on differences between the two instruction set...

chipsandcheese.com

Oh look, the same boring Chips and Cheese (?!) article being bandied about. Yawn. I swear, that article is like that dumbass tweet from that loser attorney last summer who claimed that the MS/Activision ruling needed to be overturned immediately because of some dumb technicalities the judge overlooked that didn't pass anyone's sniff test...except the "smart guys" on this forum.

And golly, I sure do wonder why an ARMada is forming if X86 is so wonderful and lucrative.... Surely, there must be, you know, some manufacturing & cost advantages to be had.

I mean, even pathetic Intel is trying to pretend to be a part of it.

Naaaaah, I'm sure this is just a passing fad and the MUH PC bros with their totally desirable RGB towers of wonder represent where the market is heading, despite, you know, all the fucking evidence pointing to the contrary.

The U.S. PC market recorded its first year-over-year growth since the second quarter of 2021, with a 1.8% increase in the fourth quarter of 2023. A decline in desktops offset laptop growth.

Asia Pacific declined by 8%, recording seven consecutive quarters of decline. Laptops and desktops declined in the region, with desktops more impacted than laptops.

I can't wait to see the reactions on this forum in 2025 when Nvidia rolls out their all-Nvidia PC; and I can't wait to laugh when they lock out their new RTX features behind their ARM platform.

Anyway, back you go with fingers in ears. LA LA LA CHIPS AND CHEESE! LA LA LA CHIPS AND CHEESE!

Man, an ETA Prime video with another fastest thing ever. This time a $1000 ARM Mac that's running the same emulators a $400 x86 Steam Deck can.

This actually made me smile. Fuck ETA Prime.

In terms of the performance thing, you have to think that companies like Nvidia, AMD and Microsoft are going to make darn sure there's some pretty fucking incredible backwards compatibility. If not, of course there will be major adoption issues.

Again, though...I think there's a very sizable group of traditional PC fans that will follow Nvidia to hell and beyond, so....