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[Mibu no ookami]

They just released two games. One is a traditional SP game, the other is a GAAS game. One succeeded to the heavens and the other FLOPPED all the way to hell. So why they choosing hell?

I think people are taking the wrong message from this.

It's not that they aren't going to make any SP AAA games, but they just need to be a lot more thoughtful about how they do it when they do. Shifting focus to more sustainable games is what they have to do as a business.

I think the criticism for them is that they don't understand how to approach one and done games. They could have released DLC for hogwarts legacy.

They could have created a paid VR mode, but as it was mentioned they brought someone in to make these decisions.

 

[mckmas8808]

So are we just going to ignore what both of the top video game number analysts said here? One in America and the other in the UK both seem to agree that this is a mistake by WB.

 

[Kacho]

So are we just going to ignore what both of the top video game number analysts said here? One in America and the other in the UK both seem to agree that this is a mistake by WB.

It is funny seeing those two joke about how out of touch the WB CEO sounds.

 

[mckmas8808]

I mean, gaming - as you knew it - is pretty much done.
Its over.
The tea leaves gone - its all in plain sight now.
Its truly all downhill from here - with only a tiny handful of things worth following.

My suggestion is to get an upscaler and some ODEs and flashcarts, or a Mister - and live the good gaming life.

I think you're right sadly. The tea leaves are all here. The writing is on the wall.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Newer? Nope it's been done to death and consumers are starting to show hard pushback against it as evidenced with Suicide Squad,Gotham Knights,Avengers,Skull and Bones etc.

The narrative might be trying to push back against it but gamers are fully embracing it. Remember, the narrative is often created by a fraction of a single percentage point.

Single player gaming started in the 1970s.
Live Service games started in the early 2000s.

We're only just now at the point where the biggest players in the industry are devoting more resources towards Live Service than SP. We're at the tipping point.

Everyone yell "Timberrrrr!"

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

How many gaas games do you play???

I've played dozens of GAAS games and my most anticipated game right now is Concord, which is *gasp* a GAAS game.

 

[mckmas8808]

This statement is too vague to have any meaning.

It's also not how strategic decisions are made. There are OBVIOUSLY multiple avenues for success in the games industry.

You highlighting one specific avenue for success, extolling all its virtues without any of its drawbacks, is just illogical. It doesn't advance the discussion.

These companies are persuing Live Service because it's a newer, less explored, less competitive market with exponentially more upside.

These companies don't care about games like we do. They don't think like "I prefer God of War Ragnarok. That's true art. Therefore make more of that." That's just childish emotion filled thinking. CEOs get paid the bug bucks because they DON'T think like that.

CEOs get paid the big bucks because we are in late-stage capitalism! If the stock price goes up next FY, then so does the pay check and stock options. It's not about quality anymore.

If I was a third party I’m not spending a billion dollars of my own money to develop a game to only sell 6.5 million copies, that is absolutely terrible.

What makes you believe a Batman game is limited to 6.5 million sales tops? That's an odd thing to say.

 

[Heaven Angel]

and after a release or two they'll find that live service games are far more volatile. They just released their best selling SINGLE PLAYER game. *sigh*

 

[Three]

How is this different from literally ANY other medium?!

I don't think the mobile market is as volatile as the console game market. I don't think the film industry is as volatile either, it's a little more predictable.

 

[mckmas8808]

It is funny seeing those two joke about how out of touch the WB CEO sounds.

And you have to imagine they've seen ALL THE NUMBERS! It's laughable any exec would look at what Suicide Squad did and want MORE of that and less of Harry Potter that sold 22 million in was year. The Harry Potter game made them over $1 Billion in one year and the stupid execs are like "NAH, why would we want to do that again?"

 

[KyoZz]

Show me your "top games of the year" threads on NeoGAF. Installed games does not prove your preference.

Here is my profile, explore as much as you want. Also I don't only play on Steam (for example I played a lot of Anno 1800, which considering his support could be considered a GAAS right?)

Steam Community :: KyoZ

Cheveux long comme Coco

steamcommunity.com

That's a game no one wants to play. There are far more unsuccessful SP games than successful ones too. We'd be wasting our time.

No shit, and guess what: there are far more unsuccessful MP games than successful ones too (and even more if we are talking about GAAS). The point is simple: a single player Batman Beyond would have been far better received than SSKTJL. You can twist numbers, preference or anything you want it wont change that.

You don't think a company like WB is studying the market, looking at a game like Lethal Company, and learning from it? Come on now...

Well of course they do but they don't learn from it apparently. The statement in the OP proves it.
Lethal Company is lightning in a bottle, big corpo will never be able to replicate it or to create something like it, because it is born from it's own limitations and scale. If you don't get that you are not understanding how the gaming industry works nor game development.

 

[MasterDerico]

 

[Represent.]

And people give me nothing but LOL emojis when I say kids ruined gaming lmao

The GAAS trash epidemic is because of kids

Fuck em!

I deleted Fortnite off my ps5 told my little nephew to try Astro Bot. Low and behold he LOVES it.

but Fortnite’s what’s being pushed down their throat. Make more quality single player games and they will come

 

[Bert Big Balls]

WB leadership are incompetent.

They released a game last year thst sold a metric fuck ton and made a ton of money.

WB: we wanna get away from that.

A serious company would fire these assclowns.

Get rid of ALL the higher ups and let the fucking devs make games. Fuck all these absolute ass clown suits.

 

[FeralEcho]

I've played dozens of GAAS games and my most anticipated game right now is Concord, which is *gasp* a GAAS game.

I meant how many are you playing currently? Because growth in live service is based on the fact that a person is able to play the new gaas game while also being active in the old gaas game as well since these games live and die on player count.... So how many hours do you dedicate to the dozens of games you play? 2 each per day? That's 24 hours if it's a dozen. When do you sleep? When do you work?

See where I'm getting at here? There are no hours in a day for a player for GAAS to trully grow since unlike a singleplayer game by its definition it has to be active and alive to function as a game and no player can juggle more than 5 games while being active in them each day the way gaas works.

If everyone is busy with Destiny,Fortnite,Warzone,Sea of Thieves,Palworld etc. when will people have time to keep Concord alive for example? Or will it die the same death as countless gaas have proven over the years...

the thing about singleplayer is that no matter how many sp games there are people will find time in their lives throughout a week to play each game but with gaas that time is finite since it lives or dies on playercount,low players,low support,low interest,even less players-game dies.

 

[The_Observer]

It is art how much money such incompetence can make

 

[Lumpyoatmeal]

What makes you believe a Batman game is limited to 6.5 million sales tops? That's an odd thing to say.

I would agree 6.5 million is probably not the limitation of the sales, but I also will not risk my own money where my only concrete target is 6.5. Not only that, but anything can happen when you’re dealing with projects of that scale.

 

[arkhamguy123]

Its over man. Our only hope is when Batman goes public domain in 2035, or if WB goes under before that.

Cmon don’t do this to me what about montreals next game in an “established franchise”?

 

[FeralEcho]

I would agree 6.5 million is probably not the limitation of the sales, but I also will not risk my own money where my only concrete target is 6.5. Not only that, but anything can happen when you’re dealing with projects of that scale.

Then put your money in the AAAA gaas from Ubisoft Skull and Bones....I heard it's breaking record after record of engagement or hell play Suicide Squad while the 500 players still left are active before they kill the game in 6 months along with the studio....You can do that too with your money if you are an investor,you can also put your hand through a grinder if losing money by the butload is not enough of a thrill.

I'd rather have the 6.5 million sale and a world renowned studio to pump up more every 4 years than the 10 year dev time of Suicide Squad with no profit,loss of renown and trust of the consumer and potential closure of said studio but hey I'm not a WB CEO what do I know!

 

[mckmas8808]

I don't think the mobile market is as volatile as the console game market. I don't think the film industry is as volatile either, it's a little more predictable.

Tell that to the mobile game makers and Disney and the film industry experts!

I would agree 6.5 million is probably not the limitation of the sales, but I also will not risk my own money where my only concrete target is 6.5. Not only that, but anything can happen when you’re dealing with projects of that scale.

You gotta spend money to make money. It's all a risk at some point.

 

[Hugare]

And people give me nothing but LOL emojis when I say kids ruined gaming lmao

The GAAS trash epidemic is because of kids

Fuck em!

I deleted Fortnite off my ps5 told my little nephew to try Astro Bot. Low and behold he LOVES it.

but Fortnite’s what’s being pushed down their throat. Make more quality single player games and they will come

Its ok to enjoy Fortnite, Fallguys or whatever

The problem is every company trying to go for the same thing

Imagine if every movie being released right now was trying to be a superhero movie 'cause Marvel

Or every fast food company starts producing hamburguers 'cause Mcdonalds is making a lot of money

Variety is the spice of life. People bought Hogwarts Legacy, they put their money where their mouth is, but it wasnt enough for those idiots.

 

[kyussman]

How much debt do WB have,over 40 billon?.........reading that it's obvious why,lol.

 

[Lumpyoatmeal]

Then put your money in the AAAA gaas from Ubisoft Skull and Bones....I heard it's breaking record after record of engagement or hell play Suicide Squad while the 500 players still left are active before they kill the game in 6 months along with the studio....You can do that too with your money if you are an investor,you can also put your hand through a grinder if losing money by the butload is not enough of a thrill.

I'd rather have the 6.5 million sale and a world renowned studio to pump up more every 4 years than the 10 year dev time of Suicide Squad with no profit,loss of renown and trust of the consumer and potential closure of said studio but hey I'm not a WB CEO what do I know!

Nah, I’m a reinvest my money into that Harry Potter game.

Tell that to the mobile game makers and Disney and the film industry experts!



You gotta spend money to make money. It's all a risk at some point.

mckmas8808, I’m not risking that kind of money.

 

[Dane]

The statement is such relentless greed on "live, work, build and play" that means they see it as anything but fun, no wonder why these games fail while others like Fortnite and Roblox thrive.

 

[MrRibeye]

Monolith Productions being bought by Warner Bros. was a sad day in my life.

 

[jakinov]

How much debt do WB have,over 40 billon?.........reading that it's obvious why,lol.

2 years ago Discovery bought Warner Bros from AT&T for billions + taking on a percentage of AT&T debt. The added debt was $42B on top of Discovery's existing debt. It was already obvious why they have the debt.

 

[VolticArchangel]

2023: Singleplayer WB game becomes the highest selling game worldwide, over 24 million copies.

2024: Multiplayer GaaS is one of the worst failures for WB Games in recent history.

WB: Let's make more multiplayer GaaS, but on mobile.

 

[Shake Your Rump]

"Rather than just launching a one-and-done console game, how do we develop a game around, for example, a Hogwarts Legacy or Harry Potter, that is a live-service where people can live and work and build and play in that world in an ongoing basis?"

This is modern gaming in a nutshell. Discover the type of games that people actually want to buy and play, and monetize them as much as possible without remorse.

 

[NickFire]

Tell that to the mobile game makers and Disney and the film industry experts!

The film industry would be fine if the "experts" would stop telling people what they want and just gave them what they want instead.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

I meant how many are you playing currently? Because growth in live service is based on the fact that a person is able to play the new gaas game while also being active in the old gaas game as well since these games live and die on player count.... So how many hours do you dedicate to the dozens of games you play? 2 each per day? That's 24 hours if it's a dozen. When do you sleep? When do you work?

See where I'm getting at here? There are no hours in a day for a player for GAAS to trully grow since unlike a singleplayer game by its definition it has to be active and alive to function as a game and no player can juggle more than 5 games while being active in them each day the way gaas works.

If everyone is busy with Destiny,Fortnite,Warzone,Sea of Thieves,Palworld etc. when will people have time to keep Concord alive for example? Or will it die the same death as countless gaas have proven over the years...

the thing about singleplayer is that no matter how many sp games there are people will find time in their lives throughout a week to play each game but with gaas that time is finite since it lives or dies on playercount,low players,low support,low interest,even less players-game dies.

Your entire theory was just as true in 2014 as it is today.

In the last 10 years, the Live Service market has exploded.

So what needs to be added to your theory?

 

[Caffeine]

but I just want one and done games. maybe replay it again down the road. I dont have time being strung along in 1 title like wow still manages to do. I dont have time to do that in 20 different games.

 

[draliko]

this industry will reset itself in a way or another

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Harry Potter did great. Suicide squad tanked.

And they want to focus on f2p and mobile?

Just do more HP games for now.

this industry will reset itself in a way or another

The amount of games, big overflowing budgets and focus on mtx gaming is totally outstretching the growth in gamers and hours played.

That’s not to say some games and companies cant rake in the users and sales. But way too much vulture like gaming companies big and small who don’t know how to run a business. It’s not like they are all super small mom and pop studios like a family run restaurant. You’d think these big corporations with tons of employees and resources would churn out quality product knowing what they are doing. Half the time it seems what they release is pure luck if it’s good or bad.

 

[MetalFreak]

Man… honestly what a bunch of idiots!

 

[Kacho]

Harry Potter did great. Suicide squad tanked.

And they want to focus on f2p and mobile?

Just do more HP games for now.

They want to make Harry Potter still, but load it up with MTX

 

[FeralEcho]

Your entire theory was just as true in 2014 as it is today.

In the last 10 years, the Live Service market has exploded.

So what needs to be added to your theory?

in 2014 there was no Destiny 2,no Warzone,no Sea of Thieves,no Fallguys,the gaas scene was just begining.

In 2014 the mmo scene was thriving,gaas just took that playerbase and ran with it, that's all that changed.it took the players that would spend 1000 hours in WOW that now spend 1000 hours in Destiny.It only shifted the landscape,it added nothing to it.

What growth has there been in gaas since 2020? cuz outside of 2-3 major successes,mainly from the indie scene as well which is hilarious given how desperate these big publishers are for gaas,there's been a constant stream of turds.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

in 2014 there was no Destiny 2,no Warzone,no Sea of Thieves,no Fallguys,the gaas scene was just begining.

In 2014 the mmo scene was thriving,gaas just took that playerbase and ran with it, that's all that changed.it took the players that would spend 1000 hours in WOW that now spend 1000 hours in Destiny.It only shifted the landscape,it added nothing to it.

What growth has there been in gaas since 2020? cuz outside of 2-3 major successes,mainly from the indie scene as well which is hilarious given how desperate these big publishers are for gaas,there's been a constant stream of turds.

Stop cherry picking.

Your central thesis has always been true. It does not address the growth of the GAAS industry at all.

The narrative that "GAAS was saturated" was born in 2020 - 2021 when 5 Live Service titles shut down in a relatively short time frame.

It's always lacked validity and has only been adopted by people wanting it to be true. That's how fake narratives work. Adoption by those who want to believe.

 

[Kydd BlaZe]

Just make good games and you wouldn't have this problem.

 

[SHA]

Great games better than great names, who cares? , like we gave a shit years ago when we first saw how good they were, names don't matter anymore.

 

[Lunarorbit]

Fuck Warner bros/discovery. Trash company that ruins everything it touches on the media side

 

[jakinov]

Seems like a lot of the people in this thread just read the headline exaggerated thread title because they keep posting about Hogwarts being succesful despite it being mentioned in the GameStop article. The article explcitly mentions them talking about how wildly succesful hogwartz. The author even notes that what's said doesn't mean they aren't making AAA games.

There's also some missing context in the article. They are being asked how gaming is going to help the company grow as a whole.

In the response, that's where they talk about "volatility". The volatility that's being refered to is that traditionally they just focused mainly on AAA console gaming that when you have years without a big releases, or when you do and it fails like suicide squad; you basically don't make any money those years.

If you simply read the headline and the paraphrased quote (that omits the part about years not having releases) you are going to get the impression they are talking shit about AAA games and calling Suicide Squad poor performance being because of the market being volatile when they are actually just saying they want more consistent revenue streams each year by expanding into mobile and F2P.

No where do they say they are going to make less AAA games or trying to imply it's a bad market to be in because of SS failure.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Seems like a lot of the people in this thread just read the headline exaggerated thread title because they keep posting about Hogwarts being succesful despite it being mentioned in the GameStop article. The article explcitly mentions them talking about how wildly succesful hogwartz. The author even notes that what's said doesn't mean they aren't making AAA games.

There's also some missing context in the article. They are being asked how gaming is going to help the company grow as a whole.

In the response, that's where they talk about "volatility". The volatility that's being refered to is that traditionally they just focused mainly on AAA console gaming that when you have years without a big releases, or when you do and it fails like suicide squad; you basically don't make any money those years.

If you simply read the headline and the paraphrased quote (that omits the part about years not having releases) you are going to get the impression they are talking shit about AAA games and calling Suicide Squad poor performance being because of the market being volatile when they are actually just saying they want more consistent revenue streams each year by expanding into mobile and F2P.

No where do they say they are going to make less AAA games or trying to imply it's a bad market to be in because of SS failure.

If gaming companies are starved for sales during leans times, then it's easy. Do what every other company does and make more products. Instead of one budget busting game that takes forever to make, split it into two.

A food company just doesn't make cookies. They make other baked goods too. They might even sell raw ingredients to consumers or wholesale higher quality ingredients to the restaurants to spread out sales and risk. A company that builds bridges just doesn't make bridges. They are in construction and architecture and surely can design and build other stuff too. Same idea as above. The company doesn't say, hey lets put our entire company's focus into one giant bridge that takes 10 years to build.

What a lot of gaming studios wants is all eggs into one big budget basket hoping for a monster seller. And even better if it has mtx to boot to keep getting bash flow. If their 5 year game project stinks, next thing you know the studio is borked. Very few companies and industries work like this.

 

[mckmas8808]

The film industry would be fine if the "experts" would stop telling people what they want and just gave them what they want instead.

I'll say the gaming industry is starting to do this same very thing now. Feels like things are slipping away.

this industry will reset itself in a way or another

Yep! In 5 years it'll reset back to selling stories, fun, and interesting content. Now......they just want a cash cow. It's why they are upset NFTs and other Blockchain gaming didn't work. They want that, not games like Resident Evil and Red Dead Redemption.

 

[balls of snow]

Good riddance. Oh and dont bother coming back when that free2play initiative fails. Wont be spending any money on wb games regardless.

 

[mckmas8808]

Seems like a lot of the people in this thread just read the headline exaggerated thread title because they keep posting about Hogwarts being succesful despite it being mentioned in the GameStop article. The article explcitly mentions them talking about how wildly succesful hogwartz. The author even notes that what's said doesn't mean they aren't making AAA games.

There's also some missing context in the article. They are being asked how gaming is going to help the company grow as a whole.

In the response, that's where they talk about "volatility". The volatility that's being refered to is that traditionally they just focused mainly on AAA console gaming that when you have years without a big releases, or when you do and it fails like suicide squad; you basically don't make any money those years.

If you simply read the headline and the paraphrased quote (that omits the part about years not having releases) you are going to get the impression they are talking shit about AAA games and calling Suicide Squad poor performance being because of the market being volatile when they are actually just saying they want more consistent revenue streams each year by expanding into mobile and F2P.

No where do they say they are going to make less AAA games or trying to imply it's a bad market to be in because of SS failure.

Why is Suicide Squad being considered a normal\traditional SP AAA game?

 

[ByWatterson]

WB Games is the guy at the bar oblivious to the smokeshow hitting on him who then goes home alone and wonders why he's single.

 

[BaneIsPain]

Let them do it and regret later.
The warning signs literally in their face and they choose to ignore it.
Enjoy the loss.

 

[jakinov]

If gaming companies are starved for sales during leans times, then it's easy. Do what every other company does and make more products. Instead of one budget busting game that takes forever to make, split it into two.

A food company just doesn't make cookies. They make other baked goods too. They might even sell raw ingredients to consumers or wholesale higher quality ingredients to the restaurants to spread out sales and risk. A company that builds bridges just doesn't make bridges. They are in construction and architecture and surely can design and build other stuff too. Same idea as above. The company doesn't say, hey lets put our entire company's focus into one giant bridge that takes 10 years to build.

What a lot of gaming studios wants is all eggs into one big budget basket hoping for a monster seller. And even better if it has mtx to boot to keep getting bash flow. If their 5 year game project stinks, next thing you know the studio is borked. Very few companies and industries work like this.

That's pretty much what they are doing except they aren't just splitting products just expanding what products they offer into other verticals such as selling organics or coffee.

Why is Suicide Squad being considered a normal\traditional SP AAA game?

They didn't say anything about single player specifically but its likely lumped with the other AAA games because of the long development cycle, scale, budget and style (story driven). Suicide Squad has more or less the same cost structure and "attention to deal" to most other AAA single player games. Even thoguh some people don't like the art style, it looks like they still put a lot of effort in the character models, environments and animation regardless of whether or not it was well executed. If you play live service games that aren't traditionally AAA styled games + live service features, the games usually don't feature that same level of detail which is why partly why they are able to come out of nowhere so fast. They also don't usually require a bunch of other things like fancy writing, fancy music, fancy voice acting (i.e. not just isolated emotes/quips), fancy mocap, etc that would make it take longer to make and drive up the cost. Remember "AAA" is usualy refered to the budget of games.

 

[balls of snow]

These guys are clueless, watch them fail miserably. They're gonna fuck up an IP as popular as Hogwarts, smh.

Already did with the Fantastic Beasts movies. Matter of time for the game division to carch up.

Those poor devs under that management. FFS, it’s so fucking simple to give basic needs to gamers.

Thats the thing isnt it looking at Hogwarts success, our ( the core audience) money is not enough, they want the childrens spending vbucks kind of money. And they are willing to burn us to get it.

 

[darrylgorn]

I dunno guys. I kinda feel like people are a little exhausted with paying for new games and just want to mine into their backlog now.