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[TheGodfather07]

Throw it all away isn't a small 5 million gap, and already they are less than a few hundred K apart right now mostly because MS game delays, they would be ahead right now if not for that in the US.

Only a 5 million gap says more about Sony than it does about Xbox, and shows that late turn around the Xbox One made worked. Don't forget that Xbox One was discontinued shortly around the time of the XBS release, the One X even earlier, unlike the PS4 Pro, and despite an extra over 2 years Sony still only managed a 5 million gap, in 2019 it was 3 or a bit less.

You see the same in the UK, less than 2 million gap under the same circumstances regarding the discontinuation of the X and then the regular Xbox One before Sony did the same with PS4 and Pro.



Check the last part of the OP's opening paragraph.

They went from having a gap of over 15m in their favour to 5m against them. How is that not throwing away? They threw away a lead of 15m.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

The Vita came around at a time when Sony as a whole was in serious financial trouble. The PS4 had to be their focus to help get things on track and they didn't have the means to fully support the ecosystems of two gaming devices at the same time, so the Vita eventually fizzled. In retrospect and seeing how well Sony and SIE have done over the past several years, it was the right move.

If Sony really want in on the portable/mobile market hardware-wise again, they can just push one of their Xperia smartphones with a fit-to-form controller deck emulating the DualSense. Or something a bit more involved than that.

Check the last part of the OP's opening paragraph.

Thanks; missed that part.

FWIW tho, we do have official PS5 numbers of 25 million sold-through. Microsoft as usual don't provide sold-through numbers but I've been able to do an educated guess of roughly 13.3 million as of this time, at least gleaned from the combined XBO/Series numbers Microsoft themselves posted in a tweet also showing Sony's & Nintendo's numbers.

Ampere had a report a few weeks ago that Series were around 13.8 million. They also mentioned PS5 being at 21.7 million at the time of that report. MS's own combined XBO & Series number were ~ 63.7 million so far. Statista has XBO at 50.4 million, in line with estimates several analysts had been hinting at for a while.

So you can just knock off the 50.4 million and you get 13.3 million for the Series systems. It's harder to figure what the ratio of X to S are, but I'd play it safe and assume 60% are Series S and the remaining 40% are Series X. However, MS's estimates of Sony's systems (PS4 & 5) in that tweet they made were a slight overestimate, and I can't see them underselling their own XBO & Series numbers.

The Ampere report may've overestimated MS's numbers when they reported the 13.8 million back in June, or maybe went with sold-in (to retailers). Or Statista's XBO numbers were too high, which is impossible because virtually everyone else has more or less confirmed XBO having sold at least 50 million LTD. Or, Microsoft's own XBO & Series numbers in that tweet (which was meant to demonstrate their marketshare to the CMA, so being off on your own product's numbers seems like a really bad thing to do) were too low.

But in any case, I think a safe range for Series sold-through right now is between 13.4 million - 14.5 million, and an extreme bullish estimate of 15 million sold-through LTD at this moment. It's definitely not near 20 million and will probably take until the early part of Q1 2023 (after the holiday season) before they can cross that threshold.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

They went from having a gap of over 15m in their favour to 5m against them. How is that not throwing away? They threw away a lead of 15m.

Because you aren't considering the factors behind it.

The Gap late 2018 was ~2 million, Microsoft was pushing the One X as a new console as a rebrand of the Xbox One for over a year by then, and they wanted to transition people to their new console so started slowing things down with production, later they discontinued the X (couldn't drop the price on it anyway) and only slowing shipments of One S were selling outside of whatever X or Xbox One All digital stock were still in stores, then at the time of the XBS the Xbox One was discontinued entirely.

So since 2018, Xbox wasn't trying to transition to the XBS, if they were trying to still sell consoles they may have ended up coming back from behind and "winning" as the turn around late game was real, but Microsoft didn't want One sales cutting into XBS or to lose more money on the One.

Late 2018 until Sony paused PS4's recently is 4 years. 4 years PS4 was the dominant platform, with slowing and then no competition for the last 2 years of that, with new game support, good holiday NPDs, and they could ONLY manage a 5 million console gap with the Xbox One?

Yeah it was a decline from the 360 which had a big lead over the PS3, but the fact the PS4 couldn't take the ball and run with Xbox practically giving up to focus on their next consoles by being out the game 4 years really changes how you look at these numbers.

 

[TheGodfather07]

Because you aren't considering the factors behind it.

The Gap late 2018 was ~2 million, Microsoft was pushing the One X as a new console as a rebrand of the Xbox One for over a year by then, and they wanted to transition people to their new console so started slowing things down with production, later they discontinued the X (couldn't drop the price on it anyway) and only slowing shipments of One S were selling outside of whatever X or Xbox One All digital stock were still in stores, then at the time of the XBS the Xbox One was discontinued entirely.

So since 2018, Xbox wasn't trying to transition to the XBS, if they were trying to still sell consoles they may have ended up coming back from behind and "winning" as the turn around late game was real, but Microsoft didn't want One sales cutting into XBS or to lose more money on the One.

Late 2018 until Sony paused PS4's recently is 4 years. 4 years PS4 was the dominant platform, with slowing and then no competition for the last 2 years of that, with new game support, good holiday NPDs, and they could ONLY manage a 5 million console gap with the Xbox One?

Yeah it was a decline from the 360 which had a big lead over the PS3, but the fact the PS4 couldn't take the ball and run with Xbox practically giving up to focus on their next consoles by being out the game 4 years really changes how you look at these numbers.

What? I don't know what you talking about right now? Microsoft threw away marketshare. End of story.

 

[Kvally]

Wow, the 360 sold extremely well in the US (and EU). Let's see if they can reach those highs again with Series.

Yup, they should be able to easily do that. They are already doing better.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

Thanks; missed that part.

FWIW tho, we do have official PS5 numbers of 25 million sold-through.

That's not regionally though.

Ampere had a report a few weeks ago that Series were around 13.8 million. They also mentioned PS5 being at 21.7 million at the time of that report.

Months ago, Yes I posted the thread and went over how those numbers can't work if Xbox Series was ahead of the 360 and Xbox One (which was ahead of the 360 early on) https://www.neogaf.com/threads/ampe...illion-xbox-series-sold-13-8-million.1640665/

Statistica has bad data based on that and other sources that don't work either.

But neither are relevant since none of the sales are regional. so with no UK or US sales there's nothing to add.

Series sold-through right now is between 13.4 million - 14.5 million

Which would put it wayyyyyy behind the Xbox One and the 360 aligned so no. Again the Ampere thing was months ago not a couple weeks ago, nd it was wrong then as i linked.

But none of it gives us UK or US numbers regardless.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

That's not regionally though.

True, but you don't have all regions listed, either. Globally, that's what it is.

Months ago, Yes I posted the thread and went over how those numbers can't work if Xbox Series was ahead of the 360 and Xbox One (which was ahead of the 360 early on) https://www.neogaf.com/threads/ampe...illion-xbox-series-sold-13-8-million.1640665/

You have to keep in mind when Satya & Phil were saying those statements, they were likely referring to sold-in (to retailers), not sold-through (to customers). MS also were only referring to the US market, particularly in the months of the early quarters of the year where Series was outselling PS5 due to having better supply (primarily of the Series X).

Also you may be overestimating how many systems XBO and 360 had sold-through within their first two years. 360 was at ~ 11.6 million LTD by roughly mid 2007, for example. So being between 13.3 million - 14.5 million LTD today would still be tracking ahead of 360, and tracking ahead of XBO, if we're talking about sold-through (to customers).

Statistica has bad data based on that and other sources that don't work either.

Well they are more reputable than VGChartz, and VGChartz was reputable enough for Aaron Greenberg to quote-tweet them earlier this year. So make of that what you will :/

But neither are relevant since none of the sales are regional. so with no UK or US sales there's nothing to add.

They are relevant to a large extent, though, because it helps in grounding the regional figures. If your combined regional figures are more than the global amounts officially stated, for example, then some of those regional numbers would be off.

Which would put it wayyyyyy behind the Xbox One and the 360 aligned so no. Again the Ampere thing was months ago not a couple weeks ago, nd it was wrong then as i linked.

I know; it was back in June. All I'm saying is someone's estimate were either too high (Ampere), or too low (Microsoft, Statista). That's why I think Series sold-through figures are between 13.3 million - 14.5 million, MAYBE 15 million at absolute most, as of this time.

Which would, again, still have it tracking ahead of 360 and XBO, but it's a more realistic sold-through range than anything closing in on 20 million. Otherwise, reputable analysts like Ampere would've reported higher numbers for Series back in their June report, because how do you sell 7.2 million units globally between then and November when the manufacturer themselves said to expect flat YoY sales increases for their FY 2022 Q1, and have even said shipments would be constrained in some capacity going into 2023?

And more importantly, with what software during that period, considering statements from Phil Spencer himself that GamePass growth has slowed on the console side (meaning that GamePass isn't as strong a selling point for Series S & X purchases as it may've been at launch)?

But none of it gives us UK or US numbers regardless.

 

[Dr. Wilkinson]

Looks like Switch is counted among home consoles in the US and UK markets in the OP but not Japan, where is it only counted as a handheld.

Right. You could make an argument for counting it in both, I guess. But I don't understand why it would only be counted as a handheld in Japan, that doesn't make sense.

 

[Topher]

Right. You could make an argument for counting it in both, I guess. But I don't understand why it would only be counted as a handheld in Japan, that doesn't make sense.

Perhaps that is how the source counted it. Eddie-Griffin why don't you link to the source of these numbers?

 

[StreetsofBeige]

From Wiki. Unless I'm illiterate, I cant tell from this giant paragraph if they are talking sales strictly from home consoles or arcade units combined into it.

But never the less, here's Neo Geo.

The Neo Geo was a very powerful system when released, more powerful than any video game console at the time, and many arcade systems such as rival Capcom's CPS, which did not surpass it until the CP System II in 1993.[12] The Neo Geo MVS was a success during the 1990s due to the cabinet's low cost, multiple cartridge slots, and compact size. Several successful video game series were released for the platform, such as Fatal Fury, Art of Fighting, Samurai Shodown, World Heroes, The King of Fighters and Metal Slug. The AES had a very niche market in Japan, though sales were very low in the U.S. due to its high price for both the hardware and software, but it has since gained a cult following and is now considered a collectable. Neo Geo hardware production lasted seven years, being discontinued in 1997, whereas game software production lasted until 2004,[13] making Neo Geo the longest supported arcade system of all time.[14] The AES console was succeeded by the Neo Geo CD and the MVS arcade by the Hyper Neo Geo 64. As of March 1997, the Neo Geo and the Neo Geo CD combined had sold 980,000 units worldwide

 

[Knightime_X]

Playstation fucking curb stomped the Saturn. I owned both systems at the time but it always was disheartening to see Sega fail so miserably with their consoles. I was such a big fan of Saturn and Dreamcast but it was obvious they were struggling against PS, whose library of games was better and vastly more varied in genres, especially from third parties. I thought DC was a turnaround and I wanted them to succeed badly but in the end they were doomed. Sega's exit out of the hardware business still hurts to this day.

Saturn was originally designed to basically be a super sega genesis, pushing 2d power further.
Doing 3d on the saturn was an absolute NIGHTMARE, didn't help at all SS was $100 more than ps1 and the 3d games it DID have looked like ass in comparison.
This was all due to the butterfly effect of Nintendo and Sony's console deal falling through.

Had this happened: There is no telling how successful SS could have been.
And it's possible arcades could've had even sweeter looking games.

In short, it's all Nintendo's fault for declining Sony.
But because nintnedo said "NO" it gave birth to playstation.
Sony initially demanded that all PlayStation games be 3d, which was relaxed at a later time.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

True, but you don't have all regions listed, either. Globally, that's what it is.

This thread is about 2 countries specifically.

13.3 million - 14.5 million LTD today would still be tracking ahead of 360, and tracking ahead of XBO

Except it wouldn't in the thread I linked you didn't read I went over the math. the XBO would have been over that at the TIME the ampere numbers were counted to. Which was several months into this year, this year would be equal to 2015 for the Xbox One, if Xbox One was already over 14 million just by adding US holiday sales to the previous number, than counting other regions holiday sales would make it beyond 14 million, and then you have to include global sales for every month of 2015 until you align with the same month Ampere released their data this year for the Xbox Series. It is literally IMPOSSIBLE for the Series to have been less than 14 million when their data released. Even in the UK the XBS was doing better than the XBO.

I know; it was back in June. All I'm saying is someone's estimate were either too high (Ampere), or too low (Microsoft, Statista). That's why I think Series sold-through figures are between 13.3 million - 14.5 million, MAYBE 15 million at absolute most, as of this time.

You aren't basing these numbers off of anything. The only way you could possibly believe that 13.3 can even be possible is because you think there's credit to Amperes numbers. But these are literally impossible just based on the XBO and little XBS figures we do have. We are talking about US gap of less than a few hundred K between the XBS and the PS5, and in the UK maybe only double that and still less than a million. You also have 3x increase in Japan, and increases in other countries over the Xbox One aligned. PS5 is falling behind the PS4, there is only opposite indication for the XBS compared to the XBO.

And more importantly, with what software during that period, considering statements from Phil Spencer himself that GamePass growth has slowed on the console side (meaning that GamePass isn't as strong a selling point for Series S & X purchases as it may've been at launch)?

This seems to be you misunderstanding completely what Phil as referring to when he said GamePass subs were stalling on consoles. opting to go for a very strange conclusion.

Phil made it pretty clear that GamePass was a big thing for Xbox Series, but that the growth was capped. This should be obvious as to why, there aren't enough consoles being sold to prevent a contraction. PS5 and XBS(primarily the X) had spend a lot of time having low stock especially in physical stores, Only recently their online stock presence has improved drastically, but that still cuts off a whole lot of buyers.

If for example, Xbox is at 20 million, if 12 have GamePass they aren't likely going to be increasing subs by a high rate. Maybe overtime another 3 million may sub but with a cap on how many consoles are being put out in the wild, you can only have so much growth, so 90% growth will become 60% growth which will become 40% growth and so on until they are able to produce and sell enough stock. This same thing is happening to the PS5 which is also seeing declines in online engagement and sub numbers.

PC GamePass is experiencing the highest growth because it's a large untapped market. It's also why Sony has turned around their previous stance and is now releasing their games on PC.

The issue with declining growth with GamePass has nothing to do GamePass no longer being a strong reason to own an Xbox, it's just there aren't enough new consoles out there. Earlier large growth trends had Xbox with 4 consoles on the market, now they only have two with retail supply constraints (mostly for the X). You are viewing this has the appeal of GamePass has fallen off which doesn't make sense especially hearing how Spencer described the issue and the fact that they only had two consoles on the market.

Even Sony is facing the same problem, as the Pro and PS4 are now off the chopping block. They also now only have two consoles, maybe some leftover stock of PS4's in some countries. Sony stopped counting PS4 sales for a reason.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

Perhaps that is how the source counted it. Eddie-Griffin why don't you link to the source of these numbers?

Right. You could make an argument for counting it in both, I guess. But I don't understand why it would only be counted as a handheld in Japan, that doesn't make sense.

The OP doesn't say anything about NSW being counted in Japan as a handheld and not in the US/UK. I separated them myself because we have a lot of handheld sales from Japan we don't have from anywhere else since Japanese sales data was always public.

Since we actually had accurate numbers for all of Japans machines, I split them so the lists could be organized. There are 12 handhelds in Japan with good tracking data.

Saturn was originally designed to basically be a super sega genesis, pushing 2d power further.
Doing 3d on the saturn was an absolute NIGHTMARE, didn't help at all SS was $100 more than ps1 and the 3d games it DID have looked like ass in comparison.
This was all due to the butterfly effect of Nintendo and Sony's console deal falling through.

Had this happened: There is no telling how successful SS could have been.
And it's possible arcades could've had even sweeter looking games.

In short, it's all Nintendo's fault for declining Sony.
But because nintnedo said "NO" it gave birth to playstation.
Sony initially demanded that all PlayStation games be 3d, which was relaxed at a later time.

Saturn was build for 3D games from the start. The 32X was a response to the Atari jaguar, Sega were well aware 3D was coming, but their hardware was a bit behind, the chip they added to improve the Saturns 3D capabilities didn't ADD them it improved them. Specifically, giving great ability for VDPs to handle graphics and backgrounds, increase texturing, and other improvements. Otherwise the Saturn would have been running improved Model 1 games with heavy shading instead of textures (which actually would have made it age better but that's another discussion.)

Sony was also always going to release the PS1 as soon as corporate greenlit the consoles as the device was already being designed before hand. unless people really believe Sony set up the hardware, the controller, and went to tons of third party publishers having the console produced in mass for launch in LESS than 12 months the console was already in the cards. Nintendo just sped up its release.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

Tandy VIS/'Memorex VIS added.

 

[Luminoth-4545]

Where's the Wii U in US charts? There's no way it sold less than the Pippin.

And it's better if you join Japan handhelds and consoles under one chart like you did US and UK. Better for consistency.

The Wii U sold 5.51 million units in the United States

 

[Luminoth-4545]

Nintendo numbero uno in every region. Impressive.


No N64 in that UK chart? WTF bros?

UK Annual Hardware Unit Sales (millions)

Code:
Year : 1995 : 1996 : 1997 : 1998 : 1999 : 2000 : 2001 : 2002 : 2003 : 2004 : 2005 : LTD
PS1 : 0.125 / 0.575 / 1.230 / 1.850 / 1.430 / 0.800 / 0.530 / 0.370 / 0.170 / 0.080 / 0.030 / 7.190
SAT : 0.045 / 0.195 / 0.130 / 0.030 - - - - - - - 0.400
N64 : - - 0.610 / 0.500 / 0.240 / 0.130 / 0.020 - - - - 1.500

SDC : - - - - 0.210 / 0.240 / 0.140 / 0.010 - - - 0.600
PS2 : - - - - - 0.160 / 1.620 / 1.940 / 1.690 / 1.290 / 1.340 / 8.030
XBX : - - - - - - - 0.560 / 0.620 / 0.640 / 0.330 / 2.140
GCN : - - - - - - - 0.420 / 0.350 / 0.250 / 0.130 / 1.150


Source: Chart-Track via ELSPA, Screen Digest

1.5 million sold for the N64 in the UK

 

[Luminoth-4545]

- Yearly and LTD numbers for Nes, Master System, Game boy, Genesis and Snes are partially made up of analyst estimations and may not be completely accurate.
- All other platforms are 100% NPD data
- In their 13th year the PS2 sold 50k and X360 sold 20k for lifetime totals of 46.34 million and 43.22 million.

 

[ReBurn]

RIP Eddie