In terms of creating engines I would say he is 100% right but I think he's painting with broad strokes. Kojima productions has one of the best looking games coming out, PD does a good job in terms of tech, there are still Japanese studios that are still very technologically proficient.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Nier creator says Japanese devs can no longer keep up with Western technology
rodrigolfp
Haptic Gamepads 4 Life
"HD towns are hard to make." wtf
Bojji
Member
Nothing stopping japanese devs from using it.
James Sawyer Ford
Gold Member
Um, not seeing this supposed gap
Capcom and Square make very high quality stuff with custom engines
Capcom and Square make very high quality stuff with custom engines
cinnamonandgravy
Member
these are great engines. decima is good too
i would hate a world where its only unreal and unity.
REDRZA MWS
Member
Bandai Namco and their entire souls series shit on just about everything else. Elden Ring is on of the top 3 game all time easily. “Keeping up with technology” or not, they are making better games than most, no matter where the dev is located.
LordOfChaos
Member
It's ultimately good that things take different paths and approaches.
SolidQ
Member
You forgot Dragon Engine, which pretty nice engine.
Punished Miku
Human Rights Subscription Service
I did forget that and saw someone mention it earlier. Pretty cool that SEGA has one of the better in house engines in Japan.
YeulEmeralda
Linux User
You mean woke technology.
SolidQ
Member
and it's good, i don't need Rocks Engine 5 in every game.
JCK75
Member
I look at what I play on the regular and so little of it is the pinnacle of graphics and technology..
I really do think it's time for most studios to make good, affordable games (and try for the love of god to deliver us a complete game without having to keep shelling out money for battle passes and nonsense)
I really do think it's time for most studios to make good, affordable games (and try for the love of god to deliver us a complete game without having to keep shelling out money for battle passes and nonsense)
LazyParrot
Member
This isn't limited to the games industry. Japanese society is just extremely resistant to change even if that change comes from within, and if it comes from the outside all bets are off.
It also doesn't help that Japanese media in general is fairly insular, although not as much as it used to be. Most games developed in Japan are intended for the Japanese market only, the same goes for movies, books, TV shows and manga. Anime is kind of the odd one out, but only because the number of releases per quarter is so small and the cost to subtitle them so low that they pretty much all get released in the West anyway.
It also doesn't help that Japanese media in general is fairly insular, although not as much as it used to be. Most games developed in Japan are intended for the Japanese market only, the same goes for movies, books, TV shows and manga. Anime is kind of the odd one out, but only because the number of releases per quarter is so small and the cost to subtitle them so low that they pretty much all get released in the West anyway.
Last edited:
Punished Miku
Human Rights Subscription Service
I'm a fan of varied engines. I just noted that we're seeing less of them get prominent features displayed lately. Seems like SQEX has mostly given up on it. CBU3 is still using their custom engine, but that's about it.
Bernardougf
Member
As long as they also cant keep up with the western story telling dei/woke bullshit Im more than fine.
SolidQ
Member
They dropped balls after PS2, i don't remember when they made good game, after PS2
Woopah
Member
There's some games developed for the Japanese market only, but I wouldn't say its most of them I don't think.
Astral Dog
Member
using Western tools like the Unreal Engine is good
But i don't see much point in comparing something like Nier Automata to Stellar Blade, that project had a modest /limited budget there are more impressive examples of Japanese developed games last generation
I hope to see some Western games 'inspired' by Stellar Blade, i don't think its likely but no cost in hoping
I don't give a fuck if Japanese developers can "keep up" with west tech tbh,i care way more about the games themselves, there has always been that gap in audience and budget that some AAA western projects get but what matters to me is that the Japanese industry stays healthy and creative , i suppose Switch 2 will be a key platform in the future so we will see how that goes , not worried there since there will always be japanese games with gorgeous graphics,most recent FFVII Rebirth
But i don't see much point in comparing something like Nier Automata to Stellar Blade, that project had a modest /limited budget there are more impressive examples of Japanese developed games last generation
I hope to see some Western games 'inspired' by Stellar Blade, i don't think its likely but no cost in hoping
I don't give a fuck if Japanese developers can "keep up" with west tech tbh,i care way more about the games themselves, there has always been that gap in audience and budget that some AAA western projects get but what matters to me is that the Japanese industry stays healthy and creative , i suppose Switch 2 will be a key platform in the future so we will see how that goes , not worried there since there will always be japanese games with gorgeous graphics,most recent FFVII Rebirth
TheThreadsThatBindUs
Member
To be fair, that's true for most Western devs too.
Capcom and the RE engine are doing amazing things, though. And FF16 looked great from SQEnix.
Japan devs don't need to be on the bleeding edge of technology when their game design and art direction are unmatched across the industry.
Capcom and the RE engine are doing amazing things, though. And FF16 looked great from SQEnix.
Japan devs don't need to be on the bleeding edge of technology when their game design and art direction are unmatched across the industry.
Shin-Ra
Junior Member
As a counterpoint, I find Team Asobi’s (Astro Bot) approach to graphics far more satisfying than Insomniac Games’. It’s not an apples-to-apples comparison with a small team making a small launch game but Asobi still punched well above their weight.
They didn’t sacrifice resolution, framerate, texture resolution or anisotropic filtering chasing ray tracing or open world gameplay or whatever it is that lead to Spider-Man 2’s 60fps smudgefest. Even the VRR 40fps mode has unsatisfying image quality suggesting the 30fps mode was the focus for that game. Ratchet & Clank was much better looking in its range of (ray tracing off) modes, many patched in post-launch with VRR.
I think Astro Bot may use ray tracing in the hub area with the glass-housed CPU character buts it’s a very selective use, only reflecting a few bots on a curved glass slightly matte surface that’s less revealing of the missing lower resolution reflected details. I expected more games to make clever selective use like this, especially during cutscenes with closeups of characters’ eyes, like Ratchet & Clank for example.
They didn’t sacrifice resolution, framerate, texture resolution or anisotropic filtering chasing ray tracing or open world gameplay or whatever it is that lead to Spider-Man 2’s 60fps smudgefest. Even the VRR 40fps mode has unsatisfying image quality suggesting the 30fps mode was the focus for that game. Ratchet & Clank was much better looking in its range of (ray tracing off) modes, many patched in post-launch with VRR.
I think Astro Bot may use ray tracing in the hub area with the glass-housed CPU character buts it’s a very selective use, only reflecting a few bots on a curved glass slightly matte surface that’s less revealing of the missing lower resolution reflected details. I expected more games to make clever selective use like this, especially during cutscenes with closeups of characters’ eyes, like Ratchet & Clank for example.
CamHostage
Member
Right, the path to certain markets being strong in a field can be traced a few ways, language being one. Another is experience, even on the low end. China and Korea are emerging as leaders in high-quality game visuals in part because these were centers of outsourcing and educational training centers for these tools. Companies invested in these territories because the labor was cheap and the education interest was high, offices to create contract art sprung up all over, these workers jobbed for big studios for a long time, and now that apprenticeship time doing gruntwork has led to an emerging field of homegrown titles. (Japan wasn't offering these same services at this scale, and it's one of the reasons their talent pool is now seeming to be behind.)
Interesting that you're saying though that learning English has been critical to career paths, since Epic's early success in territories was planting an office in a region to help localize UE for non-English languages. They made partners to use their engine (I remember the original reaction to that Frame City Killer game was, "Why the hell is Namco doing this?" but then it started to come clear that it was about getting a UE project in the office,) and they did a lot of localization and local support work. But I guess nothing's better than getting info in the original text.
tkscz
Member
Gamers on boards like here and reddit? Sure, they'll see a difference. The average person buying video games? Absolutely not. The average person doesn't even notice frame drop. Like no joke, it can drop 20 frames and they wouldn't notice it. I've seen it so many times. We're trained to notice this stuff because we watch so much media that points it out to us. The average person could play a game that went from 60fps to 20fps constantly and not care.To be honest, this part from the lengthy IGN interview with Kim and Yoko has me a bit shook. It reminded me of the Insomniac leaks where an exec, I think, pointed out that they were investing significantly more money in SM2 development, but the overall fidelity wasn't increasing proportionally. They were questioning if most gamers would even notice a substantial difference in visual fidelity from the first SM. Just fucking stop this highly regarded chase for top level visuals, it's doing more harm than good to the industry.
Integrated graphics are taking off and causing the PC market to grow and not a single one of these people would care about running at 4k 120fps. It's why I hope they don't switch to western technology. Keep proprietary engines alive and keep moving forward with stable games with better artwork.
CosmicComet
Member
I prefer Japanese games tbh.
You couldn't pay me to play TLOU2 over Devil May Cry 5.
You couldn't pay me to play TLOU2 over Devil May Cry 5.
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
Same, this year I haven't bought a single western game, there is just not much to look forward to in all honestly.
Astral Dog
Member
What is this 'change' they are extremely resistant to? What do you expect them to change that people don't like?
seems to me that their uniqueness has helped the whole country stay relevant and strong, even when they have their flaws, like any country on this earth
Last edited:
Yeah, it's one thing for the software itself to be localised, but it's another for half the people applying for jobs at your studio to be able to watch the free youtube how to make a water shader tutorial, to go on forums and bounce ideas around about things they're struggling with and consume the $50 training courses sold by other artists as a way to make side income. all of that supplemental education was overwhelmingly English based 10-15 years ago.
When will it be used tho
Represent.
Represent(ative) of bad opinions
Good article - At least now I have an explanation as to why damn near every game made in Japan has looked like outdated garbage outside of Kojima Pro and the odd FF release. I thought it was lack of ambition and talent.
While it is still also that, its actually much deeper:
These developers are literally not taught about new technology. So they cannot adapt to change. Therefore their games remain a generation or 2 behind visually.
Absolute insanity - They need to get this sorted out. First step is acknowledging theres a problem I guess..
They are holding the medium back with their absolute incompetence when it comes to technology.
While it is still also that, its actually much deeper:
These developers are literally not taught about new technology. So they cannot adapt to change. Therefore their games remain a generation or 2 behind visually.
Absolute insanity - They need to get this sorted out. First step is acknowledging theres a problem I guess..
They are holding the medium back with their absolute incompetence when it comes to technology.
Last edited:
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
They can license UE5 too. Nothing is stopping them aside from pride.
While ive liked more japanese games than western games over the past few years, i dont understand why we cant have both.
Pushing technology has been a key aspect of video game development gen after gen going back to the PS1. It doesnt simply have to be graphics technology, the japanese devs couldve focused instead on systems or physics like Nintendo did with zelda. But nope, they instead took from ubisoft open world formula and made a bunch of open world games instead. Now they are better than the trash ubisoft puts out but i wouldnt exactly say that they have innovated or raised the bar in anyway. With ToTK of course being the sole exception.
The entire industry is in a rut right now and Japanese devs shouldnt get a pass just because they made a few competent last gen titles three years into this gen. They are just as responsible for arguably the worst generation in decades.
hyperbertha
Member
Rully? And witch westen dev kann compeet with teers of da kindom might I aask?
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
American unis dont either. you learn on the job. no one is sitting there teaching college students about mesh shaders and how to implement RTGI.
Represent.
Represent(ative) of bad opinions
so then why are western games looking so much better on average if they are both learning the same thing? wtf is going on
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
priorities. Western devs prioritize graphics tech. They are chasing movies. Just like kojima.
Look at scalebound, another platinum game, they had talent at that company who wanted to push the visuals. But after MS shut that down they went to nintendo and just gave up.
Represent.
Represent(ative) of bad opinions
there needs to be a middle ground/sweet spot.
A game like Final Fantasy has more cutscenes than any other game in the industry and yet has decent visuals.
These devs need to either learn how to/ or hire enough people to do both.
Great visuals should not mean lacklustre gameplay, and vice versa.
Last edited:
Woopah
Member
Switch 2 will certainly give the developers a bigger platform. But I can't see it changing things too much since most Japanese developers are working on the PS5 anyway.
I've been on forums for years, and still never really think about resolution or framerate when I'm actually playing a game.
Last edited:
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
I think FF7 is proof the japanese devs simply cant keep up. They are using a western engine and produced an incredibly uneven game that barely looks like a PS4 game at times due to arguably the worst lighting ive seen in a modern UE4 title. You can lead a horse to water.....
At this point, im not even interested in the whys or how. All i know is that i paid $70 for Rebirth and Dragons Dogma2 and they are exceptionally poor in several key areas. Didnt buy Rise of Ronin but same goes for that game. Either you charge budget prices for your games or you deliver a $70 game that looks like a $70 game made by western studios.
Either that or you take the zelda route and create something physics driven that puts western games to shame.
Kataploom
Gold Member
Thank god, so they don't get obsessed over buying realistic "experiences" 
I barely can stand western "experiences" these days, all of those stuff people here get impressed by like realistic balls scratching simulations, uncanny valley photorealistic faces, cutting edge nose hair physics, etc. Are like a check list of stuff I know will make me get bored af. Games from Rockstar, Ubisoft, Sony, etc. Focusing to much on those boring "features" is sad for me
On the other hand, Japanese games focusing on art style and gameplay are almost the only ones I tend to care about the days. Thing is, western devs even in realism fail in comparison to some Japanese devs, the only 3D models for realistic characters that don't trigger strong uncanny valley are those from Capcom and Death Stranding. Yes, even TLOU characters do.
Japanese devs should stay that way, younger generations don't give a shit about realism, they're all about gameplay, art style, anime and shitting on woke trends (they've suffer then more than us, believe me).
I barely can stand western "experiences" these days, all of those stuff people here get impressed by like realistic balls scratching simulations, uncanny valley photorealistic faces, cutting edge nose hair physics, etc. Are like a check list of stuff I know will make me get bored af. Games from Rockstar, Ubisoft, Sony, etc. Focusing to much on those boring "features" is sad for me
On the other hand, Japanese games focusing on art style and gameplay are almost the only ones I tend to care about the days. Thing is, western devs even in realism fail in comparison to some Japanese devs, the only 3D models for realistic characters that don't trigger strong uncanny valley are those from Capcom and Death Stranding. Yes, even TLOU characters do.
Japanese devs should stay that way, younger generations don't give a shit about realism, they're all about gameplay, art style, anime and shitting on woke trends (they've suffer then more than us, believe me).