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George R.R. Martin - The Adaptation Tango

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
The Adaptation Tango

A few years back, Neil Gaiman and I did a joint event in New York City, when we were both in town.

It was a lot of fun, as events with Neil always are. We told some funny stories, talked about books and comics, about SANDMAN and WILD CARDS and days at cons… and touched on some serious topics too.

I would like to upload a video of the event if I could, but I am not sure one exists. If anyone was recording us, I have never seen the tape. But VARIETY had the best report of the session.

https://variety.com/.../george-rr-martin-neil-gaiman.../

That was all back in 2022, but very little has changed since then. If anything, things have gotten worse. Everywhere you look, there are more screenwriters and producers eager to take great stories and “make them their own.” It does not seem to matter whether the source material was written by Stan Lee, Charles Dickens, Ian Fleming, Roald Dahl, Ursula K. Le Guin, J.R.R. Tolkien, Mark Twain, Raymond Chandler, Jane Austen, or… well, anyone. No matter how major a writer it is, no matter how great the book, there always seems to be someone on hand who thinks he can do better, eager to take the story and “improve” on it. “The book is the book, the film is the film,” they will tell you, as if they were saying something profound. Then they make the story their own.

They never make it better, though. Nine hundred ninety-nine times out of a thousand, they make it worse.

Once in a while, though, we do get a really good adaptation of a really good book, and when that happens , it deserves applause.

I can came across one of those instances recently, when I binged the new FX version of SHOGUN.

Must confess, I was dubious when I first heard they were making another version of the Clavell novel. It has been a long time, a long long LONG time, but I read the book when it first came out in the late 70s and was mightily impressed. (I really need to give it a reread one of these days, but there are so many books, so little time). And the 1980 miniseries starring Richard Chamberlain as the Anjin was a landmark of long form television, right up with with ROOTS; why do it over again, when that version was so good?

I am glad they did, though. The new SHOGUN is superb. Better than Chamberlain’s version, you ask? Hmmm, I don’t know. I have not watched the 1980 miniseries since, well, 1980. That one was great too. The fascinating thing is that while the old and new versions have some significant differences — the subtitles that make the Japanese dialogue intelligible to English speaking viewers being the biggest — they are both faithful to the Clavell novel in their own way. I think the author would have been pleased. Both old and new screenwriters did honor to the source material, and gave us terrific adaptations, resisting the impulse to “make it their own.”

But don’t take my word for it. Watch it yourself.



Acting, directing, set design, costume… it’s all splendid here. Along with the writing.

And if SHOGUN is a big enough hit, maybe the same team will adapt some of Clavell’s other novels.

Source Link - Facebook

 
I'm torn on this. When it was done well, some of these changes gave us classics from the 80s, 90s, and 2000s.

I'm not inherently against changes, I'm just against when the change results in worse writing quality.
 

EviLore

Expansive Ellipses
Staff Member
He's right, and it doesn't have to be like this. For example, manga tends to be adapted very faithfully in anime form.

You'd think that we'd be past the notion of confidence trumping competence, given the unprecedented ease of accessing information, but we're seeing the opposite. Studios give billion dollar projects to absolute imbeciles like the Rings of Power showrunners, because they claim to be Tolkien uber-scholars and promise the world. And because they have no qualms about defacing the classics to conform to current priorities.
 

Cyberpunkd

Member
I can came across one of those instances recently, when I binged the new FX version of SHOGUN.
Cut It Out Reaction GIF


Shouldn’t you be doing something else, George?
 

Jinzo Prime

Member
Source Link - Facebook


I wonder if he recognizes that it is his own side that's confidently destroying the classics? Everyone else has been pointing this out for years.
 

Bojji

Member
He's right, and it doesn't have to be like this. For example, manga tends to be adapted very faithfully in anime form.

You'd think that we'd be past the notion of confidence trumping competence, given the unprecedented ease of accessing information, but we're seeing the opposite. Studios give billion dollar projects to absolute imbeciles like the Rings of Power showrunners, because they claim to be Tolkien uber-scholars and promise the world. And because they have no qualms about defacing the classics to conform to current priorities.

Yep, usually the best movies/shows based on books or manga are the ones most faithful to original source.

I don't know how close Godfather was to the book but it's fucking amazing that original book author made story (along with Francis Ford Coppola) for the sequel (that I think was even better than the original). This is how close story authors should be to movie adaptations.

It's sad to see what happened when Andrzej Sapkowski was hired to be close to the Witcher adaptation, based on how shit it became they totally didn't give a fuck about his opinions (same for Henry Cavill). Those fuckers think they are smarter than book writers.
 
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IDKFA

I am Become Bilbo Baggins
Cut It Out Reaction GIF


Shouldn’t you be doing something else, George?

I know it's been 13 years, but the man needs free time as well. However, I'm actually confident Winds is very close to completion. There have been some major hints and we might get some news when the second season of HotD finishes. Look at this blog post.


The blue rose is a symbol of Lyanna Stark. The post name "words of wisdom" has the same number of letters as "winds of winter" and quote is about Dreams as in A Dream of Spring. It all fucking makes sense! He's finished Winds, started Dreams but can't reveal it under the end of HotD. Or maybe I'm crazy from waiting over a decade for this book!


Anyway, on the point of adaptations, he's correct. I feel very strongly about adapting an artists work and making completely different. This isn't an issue if the artist is still alive and signs off on the changes, but when the artist is dead it can become disrespectful. Look at Rings of Power or the Hobbit as examples.
 
What if hypothetically there was a fairly faithful adaptation of a beloved work, that just so happened to be in progress. In this scenario, unbelievably, the author just kinda forgets about writing the remaining material. As the adaptation approaches its climax, the wheels fall off as the somewhat hacky adapters, who really weren't doing such a terrible job in the grand scheme of things, try to adapt some half-assed notes, that just so happened to have been stained with coffee, and covered in donut crumbs.

Who would we blame for this completely hypothetical scenario where a good adaptation is invalidated by fan-fic hack trash at the end?
 

jason10mm

Gold Member
He’s right but I’d also give exception to Paul Verhoeven.
Starship Troopers and Total Recall are incredible.
Rule #1 for making a loose adaptation....be AWESOME!

You can make lots of changes if you have style, vision, and make it cool. A soulless but faithful adaptation is worse than a singular vision that takes liberties with the source material.

Buy most of these self absorbed narcissistic wokevists don't even know the source material, they just want a known IP to slap on their propaganda so they can trick people into watching it.
 

Toons

Member
Theres enough exceptions to this(as in things that changed aspects of the original and still turned out good) that im inclined be trepidations to agree fully. Also its hard to compare adaptations of his work to the organization when the original is never gonna get finished.

You also have stuff like gaiman running the TV adaptation and still changing stuff around and modernizing it. Martin's stance assumes most authors wouldn't themselves reevaluate their art after the fact, but thats almost never he case for an artists. No one looks at their own old work and says "if I did this today I wouldn't change a thing".
 

JBat

Member
Ol'George has a point. there are enough examples of show runners and writers actively discouraging the cast from reading the source and being proud of the fact no one has experienced the source material. that alone tells me they aren't fans of the subject matter and just want a pre-existing fanbase to market their poorly written nonsense. my favorite book series is The Wheel of Time and Amazon butchered it so bad in 2 seasons i wont be watching a 3rd no mater how it reviews. the last couple seasons of GoT show that the writers aren't near as good as they think they are. hell, season 8 killed any desire for me to read Winds of Winter let alone watch house of dragons. kind of makes sense that AI is threatening their jobs since they aren't any better than the Tumblr level fan fic that algorithms use to generate responses
 

NotMyProblemAnymoreCunt

Biggest Trails Stan
I know it's been 13 years, but the man needs free time as well. However, I'm actually confident Winds is very close to completion. There have been some major hints and we might get some news when the second season of HotD finishes. Look at this blog post.


The blue rose is a symbol of Lyanna Stark. The post name "words of wisdom" has the same number of letters as "winds of winter" and quote is about Dreams as in A Dream of Spring. It all fucking makes sense! He's finished Winds, started Dreams but can't reveal it under the end of HotD. Or maybe I'm crazy from waiting over a decade for this book!


Anyway, on the point of adaptations, he's correct. I feel very strongly about adapting an artists work and making completely different. This isn't an issue if the artist is still alive and signs off on the changes, but when the artist is dead it can become disrespectful. Look at Rings of Power or the Hobbit as examples.

I've been waiting for Book 6 and Book 7 ever since A Dance With Dragons came out. I've been reading these books since 2000 when I was Highschool. So I'm one of the fans that's been there from the beginning. I know I have to do a reread of the series sometime since I forgot a lot of stuff. My theory is that George R R Martin actually finished the last two books and is sitting on them. He's waiting till he dies and than releases the books. That way if the fanbase hates the books, he won't be there to get shit thrown at him. That's my theory though

But if the books ever get released, I hope the books go more into Lady Stoneheart. They were setting her up to be major antagonist in the series

BTW I call it A Song of Ice And Fire, not Game of Thrones
 

FunkMiller

Gold Member
He's right, and it doesn't have to be like this. For example, manga tends to be adapted very faithfully in anime form.

You'd think that we'd be past the notion of confidence trumping competence, given the unprecedented ease of accessing information, but we're seeing the opposite. Studios give billion dollar projects to absolute imbeciles like the Rings of Power showrunners, because they claim to be Tolkien uber-scholars and promise the world. And because they have no qualms about defacing the classics to conform to current priorities.

It's because they face no consequences for failure. The entertainment industry has become stuffed at every level with a lot of middle class people with degrees and very little talent. The ones in charge don't know how to produce. The ones below don't know how to create. Nobody is ever sacked for making shit these days. It's just the same faces, going around and around all the time, in a cozy little consensus that locks out working class voices, and genuinely diverse voices from different communities. You can find dozens of people from different ethnic minorities. Good luck finding people from a poor background.

The real problem with diversity in entertainment isn't based on skin colour or gender, it's absolutely based on class and privilege.
 
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