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[SteadyEvo]

I wouldn’t know. Never watch the news and ignore politics

 

[FunkMiller]

But again without us buying the game. You wouldn't know these issues exist. Games media laud and ignore bad writing and pandering in games. So unless someone is buying the game day one and telling us about it, the problem isn't solved.

It's very modern thing that people do where they blame everyone else except the guilty parties fault.

Gamers buying a gaming shouldn't be seen as the one in the wrong here. It's just weird gaslighting when people say it gamers fault or just ignore it and stop caring etc.

A small group of people were able to be so vocal that they've essentially changed modern writing into something terrible, imagine what the majority of people can do now with their voice.

When you look at all of the problems inherent in the modern gaming industry, it is absolutely the fault of the gamers at this stage in the industry's life.

Games broken at launch, games filled with microtransactions, over-priced games, always online requirements... the list goes on and on (and all of those things are far worse than a few bits of woke bullshit in my view).

None of those things would be allowed to exist if gamers didn't rush to buy games day one, at any price. It's ridiculous and idiotic.

The market dictates what goes into a video game. If Spider-man 2 is wall to wall wokery - and still sells multiple millions, because it's a well made game full of wokery, then that will continue. Rightly so, from a business perspective.

And did you buy Spider-man 2 day one? Because if you did, then it's your fault you gave money to something you shouldn't have.

 

[StueyDuck]

When you look at all of the problems inherent in the modern gaming industry, it is absolutely the fault of the gamers.

Games broken at launch, games filled with microtransactions, over-priced games, always online requirements... the list goes on and on (and all of those things are far worse than a few bits of woke bullshit in my view).

None of those things would be allowed to exist if gamers didn't rush to buy games day one, at any price. It's ridiculous and idiotic.

The market dictates what goes into a video game. If Spider-man 2 is wall to wall wokery - and still sells multiple millions, because it's a well made game full of wokery, then that will continue. Rightly so, from a business perspective.

I agree gamers help by enabling.

But I won't agree that the people here who are at fault are gamers. I think blaming gamers for the faults of developers is just a form of gaslighting.

At the end of the day the reason these things keep happening is because of developers not doing the work they need to. Whether it's writing or meeting deadlines or whatever the case may be, developers should still be taking all the buck. Then second should be games media for doing a terrible job at relaying important info about the game to the public, you can always cancel a pre-order but IGNs will give the baby fiddler stories a 10/10 so as consumers we shouldn't have to feel the onus is on us for supporting literal crap.

Again you keep talking about the market, but how was anyone suppose to know it was wall to wall wokery (and just a badly written story) if someone out there isn't giving you that information.

We should demand better development and better media coverage. Not demand that gamers take responsibility. If I want to buy a game then that shouldn't be seen as some crime.

Againt there was absolutely nothing out there that told me spiderman2 was as much as a hot mess as it was prior or at launch. (The gameplay part is good, but a game is the sum of its parts)

BTW it is refreshing to actually have a debate/discussion on here. Alot of people seem to go straight into attack mode in recent times, so thank you for being cordial

 

[Thirty7ven]

I'm fully aware of how real life politics encompasses and impacts my, your and our daily lives. I believe me, I get enough of a dose of it each day. Does that mean I want to be exposed to it in a medium meant for entertainment and recreation? Fuck no.

Again, you can flavor or color it however you want, but believing all video games or art "must" be drenched in politics and ideologies is false and a misrepresentation. It seems like a really shallow perception of range of art. Its almost like saying Salvador Dali's abstract, surreal paintings clearly were birthed in and connected to politics. Honestly, it just illustrates how you perceive artistry and believe everything must be entangled in politics to some degree.

Of course, if you're that kind of person that combs through and dissects every piece of some classic creative work deeply in order to deduce or find any minor detail(s) that bares some vague inclination to modern real life politics then I'm sure you'll find something to validate the argument that "all art is political".

Is Spider-Man 2, the latest rage inducing “keep political views I don’t like out of my games” anymore political than Chinatown ? Mad Max? The Matrix? Star Wars? There Will be Blood? Are these films not entertainment?

To understand surrealism you have to understand where it comes from. Go read on it.

Sure Tetris the game isn’t political, I guess if we remove humanity from a work then there’s nothing political coming out of it.

But you are still only asking for one thing and one thing only, “keep the type of politics that bother me out of the experience”. Which is why some games get heat from some people and others don’t. People will take a game, movie, story, whatever, as non political when they recreate a reality they embrace. That’s all.

Now I fully agree that some works of art are more nuanced than others. I too don’t like when delivery is on the nose.

 

[kyussman]

I can see an Ukrainian flag from my balcony, in the south of Limburg, in The Netherlands. Why would they not be in New York of all places?

You seem to be conflating real life with a video game.If someone in your town is supporting Ukraine then good for them,I don't need to see support for foreign wars in my video games.I wouldn't mind so much if it wasn't for the fact the developers doing this are for the most part deeply ignorant of the world around them at large and will virtue signal whatever the trendy thing is at any given time.

 

[mckmas8808]

(Warning: PLEASE BEHAVE! this is not a homophobic or racist thread. It's not about that but effects of forced politics on our games)
Last post on this by @Vick (sweet baby inc thread) was locked due to some craziness but I want us to have good place to discuss this or at least highlight which games are secretly doing this.
I think this is very important topic and very worrying what is happening to our games. We are being used and manipulated and we are paying for it!
Is escapism dying?

Is the vision and originality of gaming storytelling and personalities of characters being destroyed? There are thankfully still Elden Rings and Death Strandings but for how long? How long is THE AUTHEUR going to have his say?

Studios are looking for writing help. It might be overall story or just side plots/characters but they turn out to outsourcing. And that outsourcing (in this example sweetbabyinc) goal is not to enrich the story and make the game better.
Their Goal is to secretly input their agenda and world views into games. And this is very dangerous to quality of games and frankly, to you, the player. Unknowingly, your world view stops being your own.
The game stops being escapism and fantasy story but a vessel for politically driven agendas. Your favorite characters are used and manipulated to do this.
Gaming is my fav thing ever and this is personally very worrying.
Now, Alan Wake 2 (despite my criticism) is an ok game. I was having an overall good time with it but as I've realized, by the last few hours of the game and even after finishing it - I was bamboozled. I was used. I felt cheated. "It's not the original story I wanted from sequel to one of my fav games and my long awaited sequel was used to change my views".
It took me some time but once you realize that. Once you notice what is going on, you see how easy it is to sneak these things near you. Even in a relatively good game, these are political agendas of other people.

These writer people HAVE ALL THE RIGHT to their views but I didn't consent to be a receiving end of their exclusive views. Not in video games.
It feels sickening to me personally that I pay 60-70$ or a game only to realize that for the past 20 hours I was being brainwashed. Maybe that's overexaggerating but t's happening little by little.

Obviously it doesn't matter at all what race Saga Anderson from Alan Wake 2 is. But what matters is her role in the story and that she is a Mary sue because of what race and sex she is. It is disgusting how manipulative an sexist it is once you think about it.
Or gow ragnarok. I was partially fine with Atreus parts although they really had to turn him into this naively goody two shoes. But who is looking forward to replaying the game with all the Angrboda and atreus secitons? I bet you 100% that Kratos and God of war franchise are parting ways to make room for this.
What about ratchet? He lost all the edge. It didn't use to be like this.
Hogwarts Legacy is a weird one. I don't know is SBI helped because that crowd hates this game but it is very inclusive game which in my opinion does not ruin it. It doesn't get in a way of the game.
And there are ton of examples (I didn't play spider man 2) but the point is not to shit on your fav games but to show that it is in a ton of games. Small bits here and there manipulating you.
And by the end of this process or maybe even now, you are ok with all of this. But is this truly your world view? Or is this a world view implanted in your mind? (Alex Jones signs out!)

(Lol I know it's way overdramatic but I had a good flow writing this. I am honestly a bit worried. Of course the post sounds a bit hyperbolic but there is something afoot)

Spoiler: More vids. Not a fan of the first guy but he is on point

The problem with your WHOLE OP here is the bolded. The fact that you somehow believe that authors and creators have no say anymore is laughable. This insane belief that if different characters get a spotlight it must mean the big mean "others" are forcing their thoughts and beliefs on creatives is why this new generation of younger people are going to have it tough going forward.

It'll be best if some of you all just accepted that there are more stories to tell than the same 4 that we were seeing in the 80s and 90s. Just calm down and let creatives do what they do. Not everything is created JUST FOR YOU!

 

[mckmas8808]

You seem to be conflating real life with a video game.If someone in your town is supporting Ukraine then good for them,I don't need to see support for foreign wars in my video games.I wouldn't mind so much if it wasn't for the fact the developers doing this are for the most part deeply ignorant of the world around them at large and will virtue signal whatever the trendy thing is at any given time.

My guy..........people were flying Ukrainian flags in New York before the Russian war. What is wrong with you all? It's freaking New York City! Do you know anything about it? It's one of the most diverse cities on Earth lol

 

[tommib]

You seem to be conflating real life with a video game.If someone in your town is supporting Ukraine then good for them,I don't need to see support for foreign wars in my video games.I wouldn't mind so much if it wasn't for the fact the developers doing this are for the most part deeply ignorant of the world around them at large and will virtue signal whatever the trendy thing is at any given time.

Ok, then don’t buy the games. Devs and writers should have freedom to put whatever the fuck they want in their games, real or “unreal”. Thousands of other games to play.

You can even ban the games from your own personal discussions just like at the fascist regime of Era.

Move on.

 

[tommib]

My guy..........people were flying Ukrainian flags in New York before the Russian war. What is wrong with you all? It's freaking New York City! Do you know anything about it? It's one of the most diverse cities on Earth lol

But it shouldn’t be reality!

I get the hate for hard-left politics I totally get it BUT IT’S JUST A FUCKING FLAG!

 

[FireFly]

I'm fully aware of how real life politics encompasses and impacts my, your and our daily lives. I believe me, I get enough of a dose of it each day. Does that mean I want to be exposed to it in a medium meant for entertainment and recreation? Fuck no.

Again, you can flavor or color it however you want, but believing all video games or art "must" be drenched in politics and ideologies is false and a misrepresentation. It seems like a really shallow perception of range of art. Its almost like saying Salvador Dali's abstract, surreal paintings clearly were birthed in and connected to politics. Honestly, it just illustrates how you perceive artistry and believe everything must be entangled in politics to some degree.

Of course, if you're that kind of person that combs through and dissects every piece of some classic creative work deeply in order to deduce or find any minor detail(s) that bares some vague inclination to modern real life politics then I'm sure you'll find something to validate the argument that "all art is political".

It depends how broadly you define "politics". If politics is used to refer to the essential functioning of social institutions, and how laws (or rules) are collectively made, then it seems clear that the majority of games need not be concerned with politics.

If politics refers to the question of what values are (or should be) important in life, and how our personal morality should affect the decisions we make, then it's hard to tell any kind of meaningful or interesting story without politics in this sense. Since the jeopardy of a story involves conflict, and people acting according to different principles and arguing about what those principles should be. And even if none of this is explicitly addressed, people will still act according to their own principles within the story itself. Like even a CoD style game operates in a world where the US are "allowed" to intervene in the events of other countries. But you might find such a principle completely objectionable and see these kinds of games as propaganda espousing a US-centric worldview.

It seems to me that the "culture war" starts in the second sphere with the questions of the kind of language we should use in interpersonal interactions, the status of gender, treatment of people with disabilities and what should count as "disadvantage". Since stories involve people interacting, it's not really possible to avoid these issues. We can ignore them by not explicitly addressing them but that arguably doesn't make the game less political because we are still depicting one set of interactions at the expense of another.

 

[Bridges]

I don't disagree but I think it's weird that Saga Anderson keeps getting brought up as an example of this. I played through the whole game and didn't have any issues with her. I thought she was really interesting. The game isn't beating you over the head with any of the usual stuff, yeah she's pretty competent but she's an FBI agent? The criticism is just odd to me when there are so many better examples in the industry of what you're trying to talk about.

 

[kyussman]

Ok, then don’t buy the games. Devs and writers should have freedom to put whatever the fuck they want in their games, real or “unreal”. Thousands of other games to play.

You can even ban the games from your own personal discussions just like at the fascist regime of Era.

Move on.

This thread is to discuss if current day messaging is destroying storytelling.....I believe it is and I'm discussing it,what do you mean move on,lol.And I'm not buying the games,I haven't bought a game in 2 1/2 years.....that doesn't mean I don't still enjoy the medium and want it to be better......and I'm not into banning stuff either,yea they can do what they want in their games and I can not support them.It's kind of weird to be on a message board discussing specific things only to have someone come in and tell me to stop discussing it and move on....come on man!

 

[tommib]

This thread is to discuss if current day messaging is destroying storytelling.....I believe it is and I'm discussing it,what do you mean move on,lol.And I'm not buying the games,I haven't bought a game in 2 1/2 years.....that doesn't mean I don't still enjoy the medium and want it to be better......and I'm not into banning stuff either,yea they can do what they want in their games and I can not support them.It's kind of weird to be on message board discussing specific things only to have someone come in and tell me to stop discussing it and move on....come on man!

You’re right, I’m not one for shutting people down. Sorry about that.

 

[Eiknarf]

the story in Miles wasn't bad though, yeah it had some pandering but no worse than any other game.

anyone whose played all 3 of these games will know the difference and the vast decline in quality SM2 is to the rest of Insomniacs work.

if I had heard how genuinely bad the writing was i would've waited for a sale, there are many games i have done that for, and instead i would have put that money towards AW2

maybe the answer is gamepass (subscription models)? without gamepass i wouldn't of known how shit starfields writing is either.

If ya wanna hurt them (Insomniac in this instance), then the answer isn’t to buy it on sale. That sale still goes to them.
The answer is to buy it used/pre-owned (from eBay or GameStop). That way it’s not another sale for Insomniac.

 

[RaduN]

Cringe stranding might be cringe and flawed but it’s one of my favs because how original it is in concept and gameplay. And it’s just cringe. Nothing woke about it thank god

Good thing that beneath all that crinhe lies one of the most poignant stories in all of fucking gaming.
And yeah, no agendas here, except for whatever the fuck Kojima want to say.

 

[Eiknarf]

My guy..........people were flying Ukrainian flags in New York before the Russian war. What is wrong with you all? It's freaking New York City! Do you know anything about it? It's one of the most diverse cities on Earth lol

But to play devils advocate, putting flags in games is no different than someone changing their profile pic to a black square or Ukraine flag or rainbow square…etc It’s worth nothing. It’s just to make oneself (or the company) feel good.

If you’re not giving your time or money to a cause, you changing your profile pic (or a company putting a flag in a game) is doing nothing except annoying people

 

[shamoomoo]

no need for the question marks in the title

anyone contesting this is gaslighting

Lol,no. There are many forms of coping people can choose outside of video games and some having deleterious effects.

 

[kyussman]

But to play devils advocate, putting flags in games is no different than someone changing their profile pic to a black square or Ukraine flag or rainbow square…etc It’s worth nothing. It’s just to make oneself (or the company) feel good.

If you’re not giving your time or money to a cause, you changing your profile pic (or a company putting a flag in a game) is doing nothing except annoying people

I didn't reply directly to that post because I won't engage with such willful ignorance,so I'll reply to you as you get it,lol.....we all know why there are Ukrainian flags in Spider-Man 2 don't we.

 

[ResurrectedContrarian]

It'll be best if some of you all just accepted that there are more stories to tell than the same 4 that we were seeing in the 80s and 90s. Just calm down and let creatives do what they do. Not everything is created JUST FOR YOU!

Again, this kind of response is nonsensical since the complaint is over a bland uniformity of thought and writing across gaming today. The idea that politically saturated games are actually telling new, exciting stories or bringing new ideas -- rather than turning everything into the same corporate drivel -- is laughably out of touch with the products we're seeing every month. I cannot imagine actually believing that Disney Marvel Inc for instance is creating anything of value or ingenuity, unless you were born yesterday.

Including Spider-Man 2 that you reference. I guess the great creative diversity here is that we have another sanitized corporate superhero who echoes the exact same politics as every other super hero of 2023 without the slightest incongruity or remainder, and you get to help paint BIPOC murals. Wow, the creativity and wealth of human expression!

 

[Neo_GAF]

I didn’t even read your post and could only think of Selene. Yes, that game pushes all the right gameplay buttons for me, but I randomly think of that character and how she’s trapped forever in her remorse hell, bullet-fighting as a badass middle-age mother with no escape.

It’s a well-fleshed out character with who you sympathise because of outstanding voice-acting, writing and a personal hell that she (apparently) designed and fell into.

dozens of people were back in the day outrages by a weird middle aged woman being the protagonist in the game...
sry, but this game has also your "feared" PoLiTiCs in it.

 

[rofif]

The problem with your WHOLE OP here is the bolded. The fact that you somehow believe that authors and creators have no say anymore is laughable. This insane belief that if different characters get a spotlight it must mean the big mean "others" are forcing their thoughts and beliefs on creatives is why this new generation of younger people are going to have it tough going forward.

It'll be best if some of you all just accepted that there are more stories to tell than the same 4 that we were seeing in the 80s and 90s. Just calm down and let creatives do what they do. Not everything is created JUST FOR YOU!

They have a say of course but there must be this and that included to raise esg score and make invest happy.

The question is - why would investors think that raising esg score will sell the games better? We are buying a game, not a political brochure. It’s because the fee crowd is insane and very vocal that investors got scared and now feel the need to push the reee agenda or else reee crowd will cancel the game or boycott it.

So you could say that games and creators are held hostage by reee crowd at reset era

 

[mckmas8808]

I don't disagree but I think it's weird that Saga Anderson keeps getting brought up as an example of this. I played through the whole game and didn't have any issues with her. I thought she was really interesting. The game isn't beating you over the head with any of the usual stuff, yeah she's pretty competent but she's an FBI agent? The criticism is just odd to me when there are so many better examples in the industry of what you're trying to talk about.

I think you are seeing why this whole OP is a ruse. There's nothing in general wrong with storytelling today. Some people just hate the stories about whose perspectives they are being told from.

But to play devils advocate, putting flags in games is no different than someone changing their profile pic to a black square or Ukraine flag or rainbow square…etc It’s worth nothing. It’s just to make oneself (or the company) feel good.

If you’re not giving your time or money to a cause, you changing your profile pic (or a company putting a flag in a game) is doing nothing except annoying people

You're assuming people don't fly flags outside of their homes or outside of their businesses in real life. People already do that. And to say it's worth nothing is silly. Clearly, it's worth "SOMETHING" if it pisses people off that it's being done in the first place. Keeping the collective consciousness on a certain plight is worth "SOMETHING". Only a fool would think it's worth nothing at all. And the only people if truly annoys is the people that disagree with the plight of those people.

If a person was neutral on the Russia vs. Ukraine thing......they wouldn't care any time a Ukrainian flag was hung in a game or in real life. Only someone who's pro-Russia, pro-communism, anti-America, anti-Western norms, and anti-democracy would be mad at seeing Ukrainian flags.

 

[mckmas8808]

Again, this kind of response is nonsensical since the complaint is over a bland uniformity of thought and writing across gaming today. The idea that politically saturated games are actually telling new, exciting stories or bringing new ideas -- rather than turning everything into the same corporate drivel -- is laughably out of touch with the products we're seeing every month. I cannot imagine actually believing that Disney Marvel Inc for instance is creating anything of value or ingenuity, unless you were born yesterday.

Including Spider-Man 2 that you reference. I guess the great creative diversity here is that we have another sanitized corporate superhero who echoes the exact same politics as every other super hero of 2023 without the slightest incongruity or remainder, and you get to help paint BIPOC murals. Wow, the creativity and wealth of human expression!

You mean the same writing that's existed for 100s of years about the good guy vs. bad guy narrative? Are Marvel movies Earth-shattering of deep thought in every release? No, but what time frame in human history have we EVER demanded that every blockbuster game have the most deepest of thought in every story ever told? Disney and Marvel are creating content that's fun and exciting (when all cylinders are working properly). That's it and that should be fine.

The goal-post have moved so far to a place that I can't understand how most don't see if as a farce! BIPOC murals for instance......how have you guys made that into some sort of boogeyman work of politic art? Pieces of art like that have existed for 1000s of years!

Back in the Roman days and army would come through kill 1000s of men, women, and children; then break and rip up all that art from that culture from stuff they don't like and replace it with their own. Is that what some people here want? That kind of thought or action?

They have a say of course but there must be this and that included to raise esg score and make invest happy.

The question is - why would investors think that raising esg score will sell the games better? We are buying a game, not a political brochure. It’s because the fee crowd is insane and very vocal that investors got scared and now feel the need to push the reee agenda or else reee crowd will cancel the game or boycott it.

So you could say that games and creators are held hostage by reee crowd at reset era

This is 100% FALSE! I couldn't disagree with every word in this post more if I tried. Hostage? Really man? We serious now?

 

[rofif]

You mean the same writing that's existed for 100s of years about the good guy vs. bad guy narrative? Are Marvel movies Earth-shattering of deep thought in every release? No, but what time frame in human history have we EVER demanded that every blockbuster game have the most deepest of thought in every story ever told? Disney and Marvel are creating content that's fun and exciting (when all cylinders are working properly). That's it and that should be fine.

The goal-post have moved so far to a place that I can't understand how most don't see if as a farce! BIPOC murals for instance......how have you guys made that into some sort of boogeyman work of politic art? Pieces of art like that have existed for 1000s of years!

Back in the Roman days and army would come through kill 1000s of men, women, and children; then break and rip up all that art from that culture from stuff they don't like and replace it with their own. Is that what some people here want? That kind of thought or action?



This is 100% FALSE! I couldn't disagree with every word in this post more if I tried. Hostage? Really man? We serious now?

Of course. If they won't include high ESG score to make reee crowd happy, the reee crowd will boycott the game and will not be happy.
Therefore they will be very negative online and investors won't be happy about that either.
So while some devs have the power to make their own true visions without any obstructions, most that rely on investors money, need to "adjust" their game to meet the demands.

Of course there are also these woke losers acting as devs in the teams too who can't make an original game and are only capable of mirroring their terrible live and agenda onto the game

 

[hyperbertha]

there is always an agenda when creating art. 10,000 games were released on steam in 2022 what percentage of those games are political? are We taking about the 4 or 5 major releases from AAA or 1st party studios? can’t take a handful of games and then make a claim that this is the agenda of an entire industry.

But indie games aren't considered part of the industry. It's all about aaa

 

[mckmas8808]

Of course. If they won't include high ESG score to make reee crowd happy, the reee crowd will boycott the game and will not be happy.
Therefore they will be very negative online and investors won't be happy about that either.
So while some devs have the power to make their own true visions without any obstructions, most that rely on investors money, need to "adjust" their game to meet the demands.

Of course there are also these woke losers acting as devs in the teams too who can't make an original game and are only capable of mirroring their terrible live and agenda onto the game

What makes you think devs aren't making what they want and it's you that just disagree with what's in their games? It's weird that you seem to believe what you want in games should be the default position in the first place.

 

[LordCBH]

Part of the problem is that a lot of writers are actually objectively horrible at their jobs. When you hire people who think that being gay is a personality trait, you get horrible products.

 

[tommib]

Part of the problem is that a lot of writers are actually objectively horrible at their jobs. When you hire people who think that being gay is a personality trait, you get horrible products.

I’m gay and fabulous. True story.

 

[Eiknarf]

They have a say of course but there must be this and that included to raise esg score and make invest happy.

The question is - why would investors think that raising esg score will sell the games better? We are buying a game, not a political brochure. It’s because the fee crowd is insane and very vocal that investors got scared and now feel the need to push the reee agenda or else reee crowd will cancel the game or boycott it.

So you could say that games and creators are held hostage by reee crowd at reset era

In 25 years, society and corporations are going to realize that the “100 screaming people” on Twitter didn’t represent the world. That’s when woke will die.

 

[rofif]

What makes you think devs aren't making what they want and it's you that just disagree with what's in their games? It's weird that you seem to believe what you want in games should be the default position in the first place.

What ?
games. Have you played any games lately lol

 

[mckmas8808]

In 25 years, society and corporations are going to realize that the “100 screaming people” on Twitter didn’t represent the world. That’s when woke will die.

This goes both ways though. And woke isn't a thing. At least not how most people use it nowadays. The 100s of people screaming on Twitter that Abby doesn't look like a woman, will not hurt the sales of TLOU2. I wish all corporations realized that social media shouldn't be taken too seriously.

 

[Eiknarf]

This goes both ways though. And woke isn't a thing. At least not how most people use it nowadays. The 100s of people screaming on Twitter that Abby doesn't look like a woman, will not hurt the sales of TLOU2. I wish all corporations realized that social media shouldn't be taken too seriously.

Oh definitely.
Only 5% of all humans are on twitter

And of those 5%, only ten percent are the vocal complainers.

So to cater to any “crowd” on twitter is catering to a vocal minority. Almost nobody!!! So why make changes for what amounts to almost nobody?

10% of 5%!!!

But big corporations do!! They most certainly do. They’re afraid of that ESG score. They’re afraid of Blackrock

 

[mckmas8808]

Oh definitely.
Only 5% of all humans are on twitter

And of those 5%, 10% are the vocal complainers.

So to cater to any “crowd” on twitter is catering to a vocal minority. So why make changes for what amounts to almost nobody? 10% of 5%!!!

But big corporations do!! They most certainly do. They’re afraid of that ESG score. They’re afraid of Blackrock

I agree with everything you said until the bolded lol. Yall are nuts about this ESG stuff man. It's driven some people crazy. Does it have "some" influence on corporate life? Yes, but ESG isn't a boogeyman. Putting a deaf character in Spiderman 2 isn't going to shift investment into Sony as a corporation like some Twitter nuts and crazy podcasters think it will. It doesn't work that way. Things aren't that direct. It's more about the fundamentals of the company, than an ESG score.

 

[rofif]

I agree with everything you said until the bolded lol. Yall are nuts about this ESG stuff man. It's driven some people crazy. Does it have "some" influence on corporate life? Yes, but ESG isn't a boogeyman. Putting a deaf character in Spiderman 2 isn't going to shift investment into Sony as a corporation like some Twitter nuts and crazy podcasters think it will. It doesn't work that way. Things aren't that direct. It's more about the fundamentals of the company, than an ESG score.

I don't know much about this score enforcment or how sweetbaby is hired to increase it.
But it seem clear that devs must meet ESG scores requirements to make investors happy... who in turn believe the bs that this ESG score will sell more games. Creativity must be damaged somewhere along the line

 

[Eiknarf]

I agree with everything you said until the bolded lol. Yall are nuts about this ESG stuff man. It's driven some people crazy. Does it have "some" influence on corporate life? Yes, but ESG isn't a boogeyman. Putting a deaf character in Spiderman 2 isn't going to shift investment into Sony as a corporation like some Twitter nuts and crazy podcasters think it will. It doesn't work that way. Things aren't that direct. It's more about the fundamentals of the company, than an ESG score.

Well that’s why Disney is the way it is.
They force diversity when and where none is needed.
They want to tick off boxes

There’s no need to change SpiderMan to being black because that’s offensive to blacks. That’s saying blacks need to ride on the backs of what’s already successful. But Marvel/Disney do just that! Why? Have they not seen how successful Blank Panther is? It’s great and successful and not riding on the backs of an existing, white I.P.

Now, yes, there’s some good:
My wife is Korean. And she never saw anyone look like her on TV growing up.
But now? Every third commercial has an Asian. Last year she said, “I finally feel represented”. But guess what she says today? “OMG, now there’s too much Asian representation. There’s not this many Asians here!”

So if you were an alien from space and studied us from TV, you would think 50% of America is black, 30% of America is gay, and 35% of America is Asian. (When that couldn’t be further from the truth). The truth is only 14% of America is black and 7.5% of America are Asian and 7.5% are gay

 

[mckmas8808]

Well that’s why Disney is the way it is.
They force diversity when and where none is needed.
They want to tick off boxes

There’s no need to change SpiderMan to being black because that’s offensive to blacks. That’s saying blacks need to ride on the backs of what’s already successful. But Marvel/Disney do just that! Why? Have they not seen how successful Blank Panther is? It’s great and successful and not riding on the backs of an existing, white I.P.

Now, yes, there’s some good:
My wife is Korean. And she never saw anyone look like her on TV growing up.
But now? Every third commercial has an Asian. Last year she said, “I finally feel represented”. But guess what she says today? “OMG, now there’s too much Asian representation. There’s not this many Asians here!”

So if you were an alien from space studied us from TV, you would think 50% of America is black, 30% of America is gay, and 35% of America is Asian. (When that couldn’t be further from the truth). The truth is only 14% of America is black and 7.5% of America are Asian and 7.5% are gay

I'm sorry, but I just don't see this on my TV or national ads lol. Do you watch BET and LOGO TV all day? I see so many white\straight people in all forms of content just like before. Just with a good sprinkle of people of color or LGBT tossed in.

What I do see waaay more of is corporations targeting non white\straight\christian\men these days in the form of finding that content easier. They have specific sections for Black\LGBT\Asian movies and TV shows that you can easily find. Do you guys happen to live in middle America like in Kansas or something?


Plus.......are you talking about Miles Morales when you say....

There’s no need to change SpiderMan to being black because that’s offensive to blacks.

???

 

[Eiknarf]

I'm sorry, but I just don't see this on my TV or national ads lol. Do you watch BET and LOGO TV all day? I see so many white\straight people in all forms of content just like before. Just with a good sprinkle of people of color or LGBT tossed in.

What I do see waaay more of is corporations targeting non white\straight\christian\men these days in the form of finding that content easier. They have specific sections for Black\LGBT\Asian movies and TV shows that you can easily find. Do you guys happen to live in middle America like in Kansas or something?


Plus.......are you talking about Miles Morales when you say....


???

Ummmm NBC, Fox (Family Guy), CNN, Fox News, ABC, YouTube ads, HBO Max, local News 12, any sports channel etc

Are you living in the 80s? Because back then all commercials and ads had white folks. But all commercials today have mixed race couples (like my wife and I). You’re either not paying attention or not watching the same TV as everyone else

And you know damn well what Marvel and Disney do to appease BlackRock and ESG scores

Are you not familiar with Disney of late?

 

[mckmas8808]

Ummmm NBC, Fox (Family Guy), CNN, Fox News, ABC, YouTube ads, HBO Max, local News 12, any sports channel etc

Are you living in the 80s? Because back then all commercials and ads had white folks. But all commercials today have mixed race couples (like my wife and I). You’re either not paying attention or not watching the same TV as everyone else

No, I notice "more" people of color and mixed-race couples on TV (congrats to you and your wife by the way), but it's not 50% black or 30% Gay is what I was trying to say. It's more than the 80s, because the 80s had an artificially low amount of non-white actors in everything.

Today TV on those networks is showing more what the real world was like, when compared to what we saw in the 80s. Like literally your relationship lol.

 

[Eiknarf]

No, I notice "more" people of color and mixed-race couples on TV (congrats to you and your wife by the way), but it's not 50% black or 30% Gay is what I was trying to say. It's more than the 80s, because the 80s had an artificially low amount of non-white actors in everything.

Today TV on those networks is showing more what the real world was like, when compared to what we saw in the 80s. Like literally your relationship lol.

Even the 90s had it wrong. FRIENDS and Seinfeld, although incredibly funny and well written, had it all wrong.
So the answer is to correct it today. But not over-correct it in the opposite direction, like what Disney is doing. As if they are punishing their former self

 

[mckmas8808]

Even the 90s had it wrong. FRIENDS and Seinfeld, although incredibly funny and well written, had it all wrong.
So the answer is to correct it today. But not over-correct it in the opposite direction, like what Disney is doing. As if they are punishing their former self

The pendulum 100% has gone a bit too far. I do agree. But I expect it to settle in a great place in a couple of years. But it's too be expected when the past was just so so bad. You said it right, Friends in a show in NYC yet it looked like that. Crazy.

 

[Hypereides]

Is Spider-Man 2, the latest rage inducing “keep political views I don’t like out of my games” anymore political than Chinatown ? Mad Max? The Matrix? Star Wars? There Will be Blood? Are these films not entertainment?

To understand surrealism you have to understand where it comes from. Go read on it.

Sure Tetris the game isn’t political, I guess if we remove humanity from a work then there’s nothing political coming out of it.

But you are still only asking for one thing and one thing only, “keep the type of politics that bother me out of the experience”. Which is why some games get heat from some people and others don’t. People will take a game, movie, story, whatever, as non political when they recreate a reality they embrace. That’s all.

With all due respect, my good man, you can take your lecturing elsewhere. Read up on Salvador Dali, then get back to me. His motives were not rooted in politics.

You're categorically wrong in regards to the "keeping this type of politics that bother me of out of video games" claim. I'm open to having my view challenged by differing viewpoints. Especially, in the case of stories that emphasizes a duality with nuance, equally treated and fair contrast. The example of Spider-Man 2 is a heavily one-sided, skewed activist narrative to point where it became ridiculous. The story itself is inconsistent, and even straight up "borrowed" (ripped off) elements from Spiderman web of shadows, while over its course attempts to character assassinate certain characters in an almost underhanded fashion. Again, if some game developers care THAT strongly about activism and politics, I highly encourage them to take that energy and seek action at some local avenues to voice their support instead of substituting compelling/interesting video game storytelling with this. Video games should in no way be a platform or place for any kind of activism.

I see those listed movies as entertainment first and foremost, yes. However, insinuating that Mad Max, Star wars and The Matrix has even remotely comparable or heavy political themes as seen in the modern day is quite the stretch. This is what I mean by how some are forcefully hellbent on proving that "everything is and has always been political". These movies were, and are, self-contained, fictitious worlds that weren't intended to draw links or association to real life politics in any capacity. Their mild sub themes of politics were very subdued and served merely as vessels to propel the story line. Nothing more, nothing less.

I guess, Tetris was in fact truly a metaphor for "one man's constant struggle against an oppressive society" if we have to go down that rabbithole. It sounds more like you're reluctant to separate real life politics from entertainment/fiction and insist on viewing it through such a lens. If that's the case, then more power to you.

 

[Stooky]

But indie games aren't considered part of the industry. It's all about aaa

no that's not true.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

I think you are seeing why this whole OP is a ruse. There's nothing in general wrong with storytelling today. Some people just hate the stories about whose perspectives they are being told from.

This is NOT the issue and you know it's not.

The problem, as the OP and many folks on this forum have stated clearly (including me), is not the perspective of the people the stories are told from. It's the laziness and poor quality of the more diverse stories being told.

I repeat... diversity in gaming is not some new thing that feminists and the radical left have introduced into gaming. That's not only revisionist history, it's smacks of a certain kind of recency bias that is very common among the same narcissist leftist types that push these bullshit narratives.

Gaming has covered diverse stories forever. It's just that the political climate of today has started putting diversity and tokenized characters above even the most basic elements of quality writing and character and plot development in games.

Where games previously included female leads like Samus Aran, with interesting stories in their games, now we get young woke Lara Croft, who is utterly devoid of all personality and whose character is so poorly developed in her games that you as the player care less about her and the story by the end than you did coming into it.

There is even a word to describe this current phenomenon of political messaging being elevated well above telling entertaining stories... propaganda. That's precisely what it is and its what is crashing the entire comics industry... it's ruining TV and film... and now it's spilling into gaming.

I'm sorry but you're being willfully ignorant if you claim not to see it and think nothing is wrong or has changed.

 

[semiconscious]

I'm sorry but you're being willfully ignorant if you claim not to see it and think nothing is wrong or has changed...

this. from the same folks that brought you 'change is good' & 'disruption is healthy'. no biggie, nothing to see here. all's as it should be...

 

[squidilix]

Oh definitely.
Only 5% of all humans are on twitter

And of those 5%, only ten percent are the vocal complainers.

So to cater to any “crowd” on twitter is catering to a vocal minority. Almost nobody!!! So why make changes for what amounts to almost nobody?

10% of 5%!!!

But big corporations do!! They most certainly do. They’re afraid of that ESG score. They’re afraid of Blackrock

It's 35 millions wich is a big numbers.

 

[Snowdonhoffen]

Personally I find the accusation that Alan Wake 2 is woke quite bizarre. Saga says one thing towards the end of the game that might get some people's panties in a twist, but it's fully explainable by the events leading up to it.

But let's be real, change Saga to a white male and the amount of complaints would have been far less. I doubt this thread would even have existed.

Not to say that some games are fucking cringe, some of Spider-Man 2 just makes my eyes roll.

Yeah, it is beyond absurd.
Let's say one of the protagonists is an experienced FBI agent with some paranatural abilities, fine, no problem with that, standard videogame stuff.
If the protagonist was a while male no one would say a thing. But change that to a black female and people call it "Mary Sue" and "Political" lol.

 

[mckmas8808]

This is NOT the issue and you know it's not.

The problem, as the OP and many folks on this forum have stated clearly (including me), is not the perspective of the people the stories are told from. It's the laziness and poor quality of the more diverse stories being told.

I repeat... diversity in gaming is not some new thing that feminists and the radical left have introduced into gaming. That's not only revisionist history, it's smacks of a certain kind of recency bias that is very common among the same narcissist leftist types that push these bullshit narratives.

Gaming has covered diverse stories forever. It's just that the political climate of today has started putting diversity and tokenized characters above even the most basic elements of quality writing and character and plot development in games.

Where games previously included female leads like Samus Aran, with interesting stories in their games, now we get young woke Lara Croft, who is utterly devoid of all personality and whose character is so poorly developed in her games that you as the player care less about her and the story by the end than you did coming into it.

There is even a word to describe this current phenomenon of political messaging being elevated well above telling entertaining stories... propaganda. That's precisely what it is and its what is crashing the entire comics industry... it's ruining TV and film... and now it's spilling into gaming.

I'm sorry but you're being willfully ignorant if you claim not to see it and think nothing is wrong or has changed.

I 100% disagree with you on the bolded. Every word of the bolded is laughable.

This Kratos is a better character than

This Kratos

One was created in the so-called "Woke" era and the other the pre "Woke" era.

 

[Danjin44]

Here is the thing, I dont care what western devs do with their game, its their fucking game, but my big issue rise when western media insulting and public shaming Japanese devs for doing what they want.

Freedom works both ways, if devs are free to make ugly ass character and make female character look like a man then thats their choice, but Japanese devs are also free to make character design good looking and thats their choice.

All this talk about equal rights but in reality everyone have to follow what western cultures does and if not they are wrong.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Classic Kratos was an interesting and entertaining character with some unique takes for the time.

New kratos is just boring generic sad dad protagonist and wouldn't have been half as interesting weren't for old kratos

 

[gaming_again]

Even the 90s had it wrong. FRIENDS and Seinfeld, although incredibly funny and well written, had it all wrong.
So the answer is to correct it today. But not over-correct it in the opposite direction, like what Disney is doing. As if they are punishing their former self

Wrong? They were no more wrong than the Prince of Bel-Air was, or The Cosby Show. The idea that we are in a position to 'correct' things is laughable. As though we have achieved some breakthrough in moral understanding since 1994. It's so arrogant.