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[ManaByte]

Wolverine Co-Creator Roy Thomas on His ‘Deadpool & Wolverine’ Credit: “My Name Should Have Come First”

The former Marvel editor-in-chief shares his thoughts after seeing the movie — and responds following a controversy surrounding him getting co-creator credit on the popular character.

www.hollywoodreporter.com

I’ve never been much of a fan of the Deadpool franchise (still haven’t seen Deadpool 2, almost alone among Marvel-related movies), and I have real trouble taking a story seriously once it starts breaking through the fourth wall; even so, I’m overjoyed that nearly half a billion dollars’ worth of paying customers felt positively enough toward the film over the past weekend to go see it.

I hope that it does its little part to get the slightly stalled MCU back on track, which should be doable. There’s no such thing as “superhero film fatigue” — only an impatience with movies that are poorly done and don’t respect the original material. We need more like the four Avengers films, a number of the Spider-Mans (especially Spider-Man: No Way Home), Iron Man, Thor: Ragnarok, Captain America: Civil War, both Doctor Stranges, et al. And here’s hoping we get them, over the next few years while I’m still young enough to enjoy them, giant tub of popcorn on my lap!

 

[Werewolf Jones]

Goal post moved to admitting most of these films have been toilet now? Aight.

 

[SF Kosmo]

It's not superhero fatigue, it's franchise fatigue. The same thing is happening with Star Wars. When these franchises get over-saturated, they become less special and people start to check out.

Quality is a factor. It's certainly a big issue for, say, the Sony Morbius Cinematic Universe. But with the other franchises it's pretty difficult to look at quality as a reliable predictor of success, like The Suicide Squad 2021 bombed and is arguably the best film in its franchise. But Justice League was a plodding, unwatchable dumpster fire and made a shitload.

I just think they've watered it down too much. And some of the efforts to expand the audience have backfired with with core too, like a lot of shows and movies for girls make the boys big mad for whatever reason.

 

[bitbydeath]

I agree. I’d even say their turn around is too slow.
In terms of quality entertainment.

 

[FunkMiller]

You can make money with a good superhero movie.

You can’t make money with a bad one anymore.

Simple.

 

[Toons]

Goal post moved to admitting most of these films have been toilet now? Aight.

Thats like the opposite of what he said.

 

[Werewolf Jones]

Thats like the opposite of what he said.

I mean anything after Endgame which is what he's talking about.

 

[BlackTron]

Goal post moved to admitting most of these films have been toilet now? Aight.

You think he's wrong?

 

[Doom85]

I mean anything after Endgame which is what he's talking about.

Let’s not act like the Marvel haters aren’t moving goalposts.

”If Deadpool and Wolverine doesn’t do well, the MCU is doomed!”

“…..if Captain America: Brave New World doesn’t do well, the MCU is doomed!”

 

[clarky]

It's not superhero fatigue, it's franchise fatigue. The same thing is happening with Star Wars. When these franchises get over-saturated, they become less special and people start to check out.

Quality is a factor. It's certainly a big issue for, say, the Sony Morbius Cinematic Universe. But with the other franchises it's pretty difficult to look at quality as a reliable predictor of success, like The Suicide Squad 2021 bombed and is arguably the best film in its franchise. But Justice League was a plodding, unwatchable dumpster fire and made a shitload.

I just think they've watered it down too much. And some of the efforts to expand the audience have backfired with with core too, like a lot of shows and movies for girls make the boys big mad for whatever reason.

Nothing to do with oversaturation in either franchise. Its all about quality. Tell high quality stories with characters that people give a shit about and a guarantee every single one of them will make money or at least find a decent audience.

Modern Star Wars has been nothing short of dreadful, bar one film and one series. Even before End Game Marvel was wobbling. Most of the stuff they have released post End Game has also been shit.

 

[Fbh]

There is an MCU fatigue, not a superhero Fatigue.
That said they've figured out the new formula: Bring back old actors and do cameos, so they probably now have enough material for another 10 years of successful movies.

 

[Werewolf Jones]

Let’s not act like the Marvel haters aren’t moving goalposts.

”If Deadpool and Wolverine doesn’t do well, the MCU is doomed!”

“…..if Captain America: Brave New World doesn’t do well, the MCU is doomed!”

I don't partake in Capeshit much anymore it's kinda poisoned media but... I'll wait to see how well this post ages when BNW comes out.

 

[AJUMP23]

 

[Doom85]

I don't partake in Capeshit much anymore it's kinda poisoned media but... I'll wait to see how well this post ages when BNW comes out.

You missed the point. If you keep moving goalposts, you can’t “lose” the argument. Cap doing well or not has nothing to do with that.

 

[Werewolf Jones]

You missed the point. If you keep moving goalposts, you can’t “lose” the argument. Cap doing well or not has nothing to do with that.

I thought you were talking about me.

 

[jason10mm]

I think the DC and Marvel films with their very samey humor, visual quality, and cgi over produced feel are a big part of the problem as well. Long stretches of these films are virtually indistinguishable from each other.

 

[ManaByte]

If you keep moving goalposts

There’s been A LOT of that after a Marvel movie made half a billion last weekend.

 

[Ribi]

Hero movies were shit from the start. It's like the Fast movies bunch of idiots who like flashy shit for a high at the movies because they're sheep. Fuck the movies, just watch porn

 

[NickFire]

There’s no fatigue for the marvel or Star Wars IPs. Plenty of fatigue for Disneys approach to them though, IMO at least.

 

[Toons]

I mean anything after Endgame which is what he's talking about.

He mentions doctor strange 2 and no way home both of which were after endgame.

 

[DeafTourette]

If a movie is good, it'll do well.

If a movie is bad or not interesting, it'll do badly.

Like Westerns... They had a GLUT of really bad ones in a short time (relatively) and it basically killed the gold mine ... Marvel and DC have to thread the needle and they're both releasing 2 per year which is smart. Especially DC. Doing their own thing with their story arc ... 2 movies, 2 shows per year. Gives everyone breathing room to watch them all if they want to... Especially for Uber needs like me who are huge DC fans (I love all comics so I'm also a huge Marvel fan and everything else!).

Competition makes both companies work smarter for our dollars and attention!

 

[demon]

Hero movies were shit from the start. It's like the Fast movies bunch of idiots who like flashy shit for a high at the movies because they're sheep. Fuck the movies, just watch porn

I've always called them big budget Power Rangers movies.

 

[NotMyProblemAnymoreCunt]

Let’s not act like the Marvel haters aren’t moving goalposts.

”If Deadpool and Wolverine doesn’t do well, the MCU is doomed!”

“…..if Captain America: Brave New World doesn’t do well, the MCU is doomed!”

That's movie isn't gonna to do well I think

 

[The Cockatrice]

There wouldnt be a fatigue if the movies were fucking great like Deadpool and not absolute dogshit like The Marvels. Enough with PG shit, Joker, Deadpool proved adult brutal movies can make tons of money, more than kids crap. Its time to move the hero stuff back to bloody, risky stuff where no hero is safe and they can joke whatever the fuck they want.

 

[ProtoByte]

I mean, it's obvious. As much as people like using manga and anime to dunk on American capeshit, one of the biggest recent phenomena in that sphere was literal capeshit in MHA. Arguably One Punch Man as well.

 

[Mistake]

The Guardians movies were fun, but everything else I haven't cared about at all. Unless I actually hear that a hero movie was good or I get invited, chances are I'm not going to see it.

 

[ChuckeRearmed]

It's not superhero fatigue, it's franchise fatigue. The same thing is happening with Star Wars. When these franchises get over-saturated, they become less special and people start to check out.

The issue with Star Wars is that it constantly is trying to alienate its fanbase in order to appeal...To whom exactly? Nobody cares about lesbians producing the force or "jedi are cops". There is a severe lack of charismatic actors and quality writing.

It is like with that Halo TV show - to whom exactly they wanted to appeal with that shitshow?

But with the other franchises it's pretty difficult to look at quality as a reliable predictor of success, like The Suicide Squad 2021 bombed and is arguably the best film in its franchise. But Justice League was a plodding, unwatchable dumpster fire and made a shitload.

I am pretty sure we can tell the reason why JL earned more than SS

”If Deadpool and Wolverine doesn’t do well, the MCU is doomed!”

But the success of Wolverine is the reason MCU is doomed - you literally had to bring popular characters and actors to make a bank. They brought back Hugh Jackman. Would it earn the same box office without him? Press X to doubt.

And with MCU Doomsday and co. they are doing exactly the same. MCU is doomed because it is unable to escape the clutches of the first phase + the same characters. Who would care about Doomsday if they casted somebody else?

 

[ManaByte]

I am pretty sure we can tell the reason why JL earned more than SS

One was released during COVID and the other wasn't? People conveniently forget the pandemic and the fact that most theaters were closed during the releases of certain movies because it invalidates their narrative.

 

[ChuckeRearmed]

One was released during COVID and the other wasn't? People conveniently forget the pandemic and the fact that most theaters were closed during the releases of certain movies because it invalidates their narrative.

Nah, JL at least has some superheroes people give a shit about.

Fundamental issue is that aside classic main characters - there are no characters in superhero comics people care about aside the pretty well known ones.

 

[ssringo]

Call it whatever you want but I'm tired of superheroes in both movies and games. How good they are is irrelevant; I don't buy, watch or play anything with traditional superheroes and even stuff that tries to break the mold (The Boys or Invincible) I get bored of real quick; like within a single season quick. I fell off the MCU after Civil War and never even saw the Thanos stuff. Even the new Deadpool movie I'm not all that interested in watching despite enjoying the previous ones and seeing this one get great reviews. Maybe on streaming at some point.

 

[JCK75]

I will always want new, GOOD, Super hero movies
They just mostly stopped being good after endgame.

 

[Punished Miku]

Some people are fatigued with superhero movies for sure. Of course its real.

However, that doesn't mean superhero fatigue has affected literally everyone in the world. If you make a good movie, there's still an audience for it currently.

 

[KyoZz]

There’s been A LOT of that after a Marvel movie made half a billion last weekend.

Dude, you're an expert on this, and when people prove you wrong, you disappear and stop responding

(last example just yesterday with my response on the Skeleton Crew topic you created )

One was released during COVID and the other wasn't? People conveniently forget the pandemic and the fact that most theaters were closed during the releases of certain movies because it invalidates their narrative.

Oh yeah, because TSS was the ONLY movie released around that time, right? Mortal Kombat and Godzilla vs Kong (just to stay with Warner) didn't come out around the same time and didn't make a ton of money... Oh shit but they did!!

 

[ManaByte]

Oh yeah, because TSS was the ONLY movie released around that time, right? Mortal Kombat and Godzilla vs Kong (just to stay with Warner) didn't come out around the same time and didn't make a ton of money... Oh shit but they did!!

Mortal Kombat isn't a good comparison since it made half of what The Suicide Squad did.

 

[KyoZz]

Mortal Kombat isn't a good comparison since it made half of what The Suicide Squad did.

Ah yeah, but it's still valid especially when Suicide Squad 2016 made 750M$. And GvK still exist so I don't buy this excuse of "but COVID"

 

[diffusionx]

Nobody is going to sign up for the MCU franchise thing where you sign up for a decade of interlocking and relating content again. That model is done. Even if Kang didn’t beat his girlfriend nobody was going to give a shit about it. People will watch the movie with Robert Downey because they like him not because it’s a movie as part of this massive franchise they’re invested in. So in that sense they are back to just being regular movies.

 

[Doom85]

But the success of Wolverine is the reason MCU is doomed - you literally had to bring popular characters and actors to make a bank. They brought back Hugh Jackman. Would it earn the same box office without him? Press X to doubt.

And with MCU Doomsday and co. they are doing exactly the same. MCU is doomed because it is unable to escape the clutches of the first phase + the same characters. Who would care about Doomsday if they casted somebody else?

Unable to escape the clutches of Phase 1? Guardians, Dr Strange, and Black Panther weren’t Phase 1 and they’re still doing quite well.

Regardless, you’re proving my point. Every time a MCU film is successful, the excuses from the doubt police start rolling in. We could have four profitable MCU movies in a row, and people would still be like, “Marvel doomed, LOL”.

Oh wait, that did happen!

Spider-Man: No Way Home

www.boxofficemojo.com

Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness

www.boxofficemojo.com

Thor: Love and Thunder

www.boxofficemojo.com

Black Panther: Wakanda Forever

www.boxofficemojo.com

Like, once we got past the COVID hesitation that still affected 2021 to some extent, so we’re talking 2022 to today, what MCU films have flopped in terms of series that were pretty successful up to that point? Ant-man, whose prior two films were profitable but far less compared to most MCU films of Phases 1-3, and The Marvels, which did legit flop compared to the prior film. So ONE series had an entry majorly flop compared to its prior very successful entry, which somehow made people conclude, ”LOL, Marvel doomed!”

Nah, JL at least has some superheroes people give a shit about.

Fundamental issue is that aside classic main characters - there are no characters in superhero comics people care about aside the pretty well known ones.

Nobody who didn’t read comics knew who these people were pre-2014. Hell, even The Avengers were far less popular pre-2008 compared to Spidey and X-men. Iron Man was so less important in the comics’ eyes they didn’t even bother putting him in one of the 90’s Marvel vs. DC main fights, or even one of the secondary fights!

 

[TGO]

It's not superhero fatigue, it's franchise fatigue. The same thing is happening with Star Wars. When these franchises get over-saturated, they become less special and people start to check out.

It would be a different story if those projects were actually good.
It's not franchise fatigue, it's shit fatigue

 

[jason10mm]

Nobody is going to sign up for the MCU franchise thing where you sign up for a decade of interlocking and relating content again. That model is done. Even if Kang didn’t beat his girlfriend nobody was going to give a shit about it. People will watch the movie with Robert Downey because they like him not because it’s a movie as part of this massive franchise they’re invested in. So in that sense they are back to just being regular movies.

They will, but the contract is gonna be for $$$. The days where Marvel could nab an unknown actor for a 5 movie deal for just a few hundred thousand (Hemsworth on Thor, for example) are OVER. Casting costs are gonna drive them into the ground, gonna make the beef with Terrence Howard over pay seem like a drop in the bucket. I wouldn't accept backend percentages either, those studios are NOTORIOUS for "creative accounting" that wipes out hundreds of millions in profit.

The only way Marvel can control cast costs is to go back to single picture deals, ruthlessly recast, or aggressively hunt for starving talent they can convince to sign bad contracts, usually foreign actors that need to work to stay in country.

 

[diffusionx]

They will, but the contract is gonna be for $$$. The days where Marvel could nab an unknown actor for a 5 movie deal for just a few hundred thousand (Hemsworth on Thor, for example) are OVER. Casting costs are gonna drive them into the ground, gonna make the beef with Terrence Howard over pay seem like a drop in the bucket. I wouldn't accept backend percentages either, those studios are NOTORIOUS for "creative accounting" that wipes out hundreds of millions in profit.

The only way Marvel can control cast costs is to go back to single picture deals, ruthlessly recast, or aggressively hunt for starving talent they can convince to sign bad contracts, usually foreign actors that need to work to stay in country.

I mean, the audience. Like think of the level of investment people had to watch 30 of these fucking movies or whatever from Iron Man to Avengers 3. Including shit that nobody ever heard of like Ant Man and Guardians of the Galaxy. It didn't matter, those movies were enormous. They did it without Spiderman for the most part FFS. That's what isn't happening. Now, people will watch a movie if it looks good and stay away if it looks bad. My Asian friend wanted to see that Chinese themed one (with the annoying actor) and most of the audience was Asian. That sort of thing. Marvel thought that people would sign up to watch not just another 30 movies but tons of TV shows, and oh yea, they're all horrible, they're all the same "stale pale male passes the torch to stunning and brave woman", but since they're Marvel, people will watch. Wrong. People are going to watch Doom because its hopefully good and because its RDJR not because it's part of a Marvel franchise.

 

[ManaByte]

Nobody who didn’t read comics knew who these people were pre-2014.

Just go look at the old GOTG threads here in 2013. People were saying it was going to bomb, be the end of the MCU, etc. Sound familiar?

 

[ChuckeRearmed]

Nobody who didn’t read comics knew who these people were pre-2014. Hell, even The Avengers were far less popular pre-2008 compared to Spidey and X-men. Iron Man was so less important in the comics’ eyes they didn’t even bother putting him in one of the 90’s Marvel vs. CD main fights, or even one of the secondary fights!

But that's the whole point - all of it was elevated due to extremely successful first phase (and CE and RDJ performance) - who would bother to watch Guardians without all other MCU movies attached? Just like you mentioned - nobody knew those characters. BP, Doctor Strange etc. are all the characters introduced before Endgame. The first three phases of MCU is an entirely different beast. Before that nobody would care about most of those characters.

And Spider-Man has always been a very popular character (NWH even brought back all the fan favorites too - like DxW but on steroids) so it would be successful either (though it has become even more popular due to MCU) way. We see it even post-Endgame where relatively popular characters, that has become fan favorites in the first three phases are still making a bank - but there is no more "MCU movie, we have to go to the theater" situation or "1b+" for every second movie (or even more). Like MCU started with Captain America getting around 400m in the phase 1, then it has become 700m in the phase 2 and 1.1b in the phase 3. And a lot of movies were like that - growing from movie to movie, elevated but the overall phase.

It is all running on fumes. And that's why they brought back RDJ.

 

[Doom85]

But that's the whole point - all of it was elevated due to extremely successful first phase (and CE and RDJ performance) - who would bother to watch Guardians without all other MCU movies attached? Just like you mentioned - nobody knew those characters. BP, Doctor Strange etc. are all the characters introduced before Endgame. The first three phases of MCU is an entirely different beast. Before that nobody would care about most of those characters.

And Spider-Man has always been a very popular character (NWH even brought back all the fan favorites too - like DxW but on steroids) so it would be successful either (though it has become even more popular due to MCU). We see it even post-Endgame where relatively popular characters, that has become fan favorites in the first three phases are still making a bank - but there is no more "MCU movie, we have to go to the theater" situation or "1b+" for every second movie (or even more).

It is all running on fumes. And that's why they brought back RDJ.

-That is not what you said. You said:

“MCU is doomed because it is unable to escape the clutches of the first phase + the same characters. Who would care about Doomsday if they casted somebody else?“

Guardians 1 is not attached to Phase 1 characters save one scene of Thanos, the guy who showed up for three seconds of a prior film. No very well known actors (we’re not counting voices only) for the main actors, I clearly remember people going, “oh, well there’s the guy from Parks and Rec.”

-No, no, no, no, NO. You said Phase 1. ONE. That covers Iron Man 1 to Avengers 1. That’s it. Phase 2 and 3 are not Phase One. This is blatant goalpost moving.

-yeah, four successful movies in a row, one flop of a series (Ant-man) that never did that great to begin with, another successful movie (Guardians 3), and a legit flop (Marvels). How will the MCU possibly survive?!

 

[ManaByte]

-That is not what you said. You said:

“MCU is doomed because it is unable to escape the clutches of the first phase + the same characters. Who would care about Doomsday if they casted somebody else?“

Guardians 1 is not attached to Phase 1 characters save one scene of Thanos, the guy who showed up for three seconds of a prior film. No very well known actors (we’re not counting voices only) for the main actors, I clearly remember people going, “oh, well there’s the guy from Parks and Rec.”

-No, no, no, no, NO. You said Phase 1. ONE. That covers Iron Man 1 to Avengers 1. That’s it. Phase 2 and 3 are not Phase One. This is blatant goalpost moving.

-yeah, four successful movies in a row, one flop of a series (Ant-man) that never did that great to begin with, another successful movie (Guardians 3), and a legit flop (Marvels). How will the MCU possibly survive?!

The problem was that Bob Cheapek was spamming too much content. He just wanted an endless stream of content for D+ and Hulu without any regard of the quality. The Marvels isn't even the worst of Phase 5 (that's Quantumania) or the worst of the MCU (that's Secret Invasion). But Cheapek was jamming garbage down people's throats like how ESPN jams the WNBA down people's throats.

Iger came back and put a stop to all that. Now he has back-to-back $1B+ movies.

 

[ChuckeRearmed]

“MCU is doomed because it is unable to escape the clutches of the first phase + the same characters. Who would care about Doomsday if they casted somebody else?“

The first phase made people interested in other MCU content thanks to stellar performance of RDJ, CE and CH (kinda). Plus Avengers at the end that made people interested in other characters.

 

[jason10mm]

The problem was that Bob Cheapek was spamming too much content. He just wanted an endless stream of content for D+ and Hulu without any regard of the quality. The Marvels isn't even the worst of Phase 5 (that's Quantumania) or the worst of the MCU (that's Secret Invasion). But Cheapek was jamming garbage down people's throats like how ESPN jams the WNBA down people's throats.

Iger came back and put a stop to all that. Now he has back-to-back $1B+ movies.

What has he actually cut that would have been out by now? Daredevil? We just had Echo, GOTG3 and DP3 were greenlit waaaaaaaaaay before Iger took over. The strike has delayed stuff more than anything so far. Hell, if Marvel had their shit together we may have had a Blade film for Halloween and capitalizing on the renewed interest in that property after DP3. Thats an IP that could totally side step any capeshit fatigue and exist almost completely independently of any MCU stuff. Instead we have Agatha the Witch?

GOTG3 and DP3 are male audience focused, traditional films that target the core comic book audience. No wonder they are doing well vs the likes of Ms. Marvel or Quantumania.

 

[ManaByte]

What has he actually cut that would have been out by now?

Captain America was delayed an entire year and they spent millions on reshoots to fix the Cheapek disaster (and Seth Rollins was replaced and upgraded to Giancarlo Esposito as a result). The original version of Cap with Seth Rollins as a villain was like a Direct to Video movie. Thunderbolts was delayed 7 months and they had to recast Sentry due to it. And Daredevil had to reshoot like half they season because the originally killed Foggy and Karen in the first episode.

 

[jason10mm]

Captain America was delayed an entire year and they spent millions on reshoots to fix the Cheapek disaster (and Seath Rollins was replaced and upgraded to Giancarlo Esposito as a result). Thunderbolts was delayed 7 months and they had to recast Sentry due to it. And Daredevil had to reshoot like half the season because the originally killed Foggy and Karen in the first episode.

Well, guess we'll have to wait for that stuff to come out to see if the reshoots were worth it. I'm not sure that kind of problematic production is ever to the benefit of the final product. Rogue One perhaps? Solo? Who can really say since they rarely release the raw cut. Guess folks seem to prefer the Snyder cut of JL over the Whedon version but of course a 4 hour cut was never gonna hit theaters so it's kinda moot. So far he has just COST marvel HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS in reshoots, no guarantee it will pay off. Though if he straight cancelled some TV renewals or films before production that might be some savings. No Ms. Marvel s2 or She-Hulk s2 is money saved for sure.

 

[SF Kosmo]

It would be a different story if those projects were actually good.
It's not franchise fatigue, it's shit fatigue

These are related issues. Over-saturation raises the bar for quality.

Stuff like The Marvels wasn't bad-bad, it was just mid, by-the-numbers stuff that would have done fine a few years earlier, but people were bored. Some actually good movies in these franchises like Guardians of the Galaxy 3 underperformed. The brand has just been so watered down.

 

[Doom85]

The first phase made people interested in other MCU content thanks to stellar performance of RDJ, CE and CH (kinda). Plus Avengers at the end that made people interested in other characters.

This is such a reach. Again, you said:

MCU is doomed because it is unable to escape the clutches of the first phase + the same characters. Who would care about Doomsday if they casted somebody else?

What does Guardians 1 have to do with anyone in Phase 1 aside from Thanos appearing for one scene, a dude whose only prior appearance was SECONDS long? I’ll give you a hint:

Also, Dr. Strange 1 had zero characters from Phase 1. Oh, but Black Panther 1 had Bucky! ………limited to solely a post credits scene.