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[VGEsoterica]

Sure Sega technically had a 3D game in the 80's, but good luck remembering the name of that game! (it was Sub Roc 3D and technically its still 2D....fun little fact)

But Virtua Racing was the definitive line in the sand for Sega going from a developer of purely 2D video games to embracing 3D and being the market leader of the technology. Because throughout the 90s barely anyone could touch Sega when it came to 3D video game development OR the hardware the games ran on. Model 1, 2 and 3 just absolutely blew anything else available out of the water save for some of Namco's 3D platforms...and even then Sega always still had the edge.

But for a first outing in proper 3D, Virtua Racing is still a game that is highly regarded as an absolute classic. Somehow Sega managed to avoid the "3D growing pains" devs usually found when transitioning from 2D sprite based game development to the triangle era of polygons and 3D engines. It doesn't hurt that the racing is just straight up iconic!

But that got me thinking GAF...what devs nailed 3D out of the gate and what devs just totally tripped?

 

[VGEsoterica]

Forgot my pick lol…Super Mario 64 (can’t REALLY count StarFox since Nintendo didn’t develop it solo)

 

[acm2000]

still remember the first time i saw this in arcades, at the age of 11 it was the exact moment my balls dropped, it was that good.

 

[Scotty W]

Classic game. Amazing that they made this game and it never even occurred to them that they might want to have 3d tech in the Saturn until the very last minute.

 

[cireza]

Classic game. Amazing that they made this game and it never even occurred to them that they might want to have 3d tech in the Saturn until the very last minute.

I see what you did there.

 

[acm2000]

Classic game. Amazing that they made this game and it never even occurred to them that they might want to have 3d tech in the Saturn until the very last minute.

haha do you realize how expensive segas model 1 arcades were? $35,000-41,000 for the normal versions in todays money, $68,000 for the deluxe, all the way up to $700,000 for the 4 player virtua formula edition

 

[SaintALia]

I think most devs tripped and fell flat on their face when it came to taking the first step in 3D tbh. Especially in regards to camera control, I think pretty much everyone fucked up there(unless you used fixed camera angles) even Nintendo, though I don't remember Mario 64 being THAT awful, just really annoying at points.

Good thing the dual analogue came out later for PS1. The Saturn got an analogue controller, but I don't think I ever used it. Apart from Nights, I don't know what I'd use it for, Toshinden, Panzer Dragoon or Bug maybe?

But I think racing, platformers and fighting games fared the best in the early 3D era. SNK took a long time to transition and I think most of their 3D games were shitty or just not as good as the 2D versions iirc.

 

[winjer]

I had this game for the Mega Drive way back in the day. At a time when almost all games were still 2d scalers, it was extremely impressive.

 

[VGEsoterica]

haha do you realize how expensive segas model 1 arcades were? $35,000-41,000 for the normal versions in todays money, $68,000 for the deluxe, all the way up to $700,000 for the 4 player virtua formula edition

Granted a lot of the cost was the cabinet itself but yes there was no way to downsize Model 1 silicon for the home market and have it be affordable

 

[Calverz]

Super Mario 64 for me. Still more or less the formula used for 3d games to this game. Just seemed to get the movement right immediately. Games that tripped? Bubsy 3d lol

 

[SF Kosmo]

Sega succeeded with early 3D because of two main reasons. 1) They didn't treat 3D as a gimmick, and made sure the fundamentals of game design came first, and 2) They made sure that the hardware was in place to get solid performance, rather than pushing into 3D at the expense of response time, framerate, and controls. Model 1 hardware didn't blow my mind tooooo much considering other 3D games had been around for years, but I have to say Model 2 and Model 3 felt light years ahead when they first released.

Namco also probably deserves some credit with Winning Run as well, which was quite a bit earlier than Virtua Racing.

 

[VGEsoterica]

Sega succeeded with early 3D because of two main reasons. 1) They didn't treat 3D as a gimmick, and made sure the fundamentals of game design came first, and 2) They made sure that the hardware was in place to get solid performance, rather than pushing into 3D at the expense of response time, framerate, and controls. Model 1 hardware didn't blow my mind tooooo much considering other 3D games had been around for years, but I have to say Model 2 and Model 3 felt light years ahead when they first released.

Namco also probably deserves some credit with Winning Run as well, which was quite a bit earlier than Virtua Racing.

Namco always had great hardware and while I enjoy their games I do think Sega couldn’t really be matched in the gameplay dept when it came to 3D racing

 

[sinnergy]

Star fox.

 

[cireza]

Star fox.

This game was released later indeed.

 

[SF Kosmo]

Namco always had great hardware and while I enjoy their games I do think Sega couldn’t really be matched in the gameplay dept when it came to 3D racing

You could probably write a pretty good coffee table book just on Sega's racing games alone. I mean really they're the kings.

But it has to be said, Winning Run was a solid four years ahead of Virtua Racing, which is forever in that era of arcade gaming. That deserves a nod. VR is the better game in the end but way later.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

Sega succeeded with early 3D because of two main reasons. 1) They didn't treat 3D as a gimmick, and made sure the fundamentals of game design came first, and 2) They made sure that the hardware was in place to get solid performance, rather than pushing into 3D at the expense of response time, framerate, and controls. Model 1 hardware didn't blow my mind tooooo much considering other 3D games had been around for years, but I have to say Model 2 and Model 3 felt light years ahead when they first released.

Namco also probably deserves some credit with Winning Run as well, which was quite a bit earlier than Virtua Racing.

Atari had Hard Drivin around the same time. Which was where real early 3D in the arcades took off,

As for succeeded this depends on your criteria for success, but if you are talking in technology working with US military contractors helped a lot.

Still the next best were able to under cut Sega on price while still having graphics to wow players, which was the death blow to the model 3 despite how impressive it was. Along with Sega thinking people would continue paying while everyone elses deals got better.

I think most devs tripped and fell flat on their face when it came to taking the first step in 3D tbh. Especially in regards to camera control, I think pretty much everyone fucked up there(unless you used fixed camera angles) even Nintendo, though I don't remember Mario 64 being THAT awful, just really annoying at points.

Good thing the dual analogue came out later for PS1. The Saturn got an analogue controller, but I don't think I ever used it. Apart from Nights, I don't know what I'd use it for, Toshinden, Panzer Dragoon or Bug maybe?

But I think racing, platformers and fighting games fared the best in the early 3D era. SNK took a long time to transition and I think most of their 3D games were shitty or just not as good as the 2D versions iirc.

SNK wasn't really later, I think HyperNeogeo was 96, 97, but it was basically console quality in comparison to what other companies were putting out. in the arcades, in some ways worse.

As for double Analog, that was a popular camera control method on computers, but not so much consoles until Xbox 1, and while there were a small few games that had that control most games people experienced on PS1 didn't use it, heck many of them didn't use the right stick at all unless they were games that were suitable for Sony's dual joystick, which is where the Dual controllers came from (not the N64 like people think) like Ace Combat or Decent.

Since the other consoles had one stick, N64, DC, Saturn, there was very limited use of dual stick usage for the camera until developers made it standard from the Xbox, for FP and TP games. DC only had one stick because according to the maker of the controller, Japanese devs didn't want a second stick. Some were still making games using the dpad, there was resistance to even one analog stick being standard despite two consoles forcing it.

Playing games before that is interesting though. They all tried to do something different involving the one stick, or no stick and using the Dpad with unique solutions to try and make up for the lack of camera control.

Tomb Raider became a popular method to imitate for that reason. The worst one had to be those early 3D console games that had your character move like a grid and you had no control on how much you stepped forward or not and would always walk the same big distance in either direction. Made action games and TPS a pain to play. Especially if they had pits.

 

[Spukc]

for me it was elite on the pc amstrad

this was the shit

 

[TheMan]

I think I came across Virtua Fighter first and jesus I was blown away. It really felt like the future even though 2d was still king at that point.

And like others have pointed out, Super Mario 64 being Nintendo's first 3d game was such a home run. Really showed what proper 3d platforming could be even if the camera wasn't perfect.

Mid 90s was such an exciting times for games

 

[Team Andromeda]

Sure Sega technically had a 3D game in the 80's, but good luck remembering the name of that game! (it was Sub Roc 3D and technically its still 2D....fun little fact)

But Virtua Racing was the definitive line in the sand for Sega going from a developer of purely 2D video games to embracing 3D and being the market leader of the technology. Because throughout the 90s barely anyone could touch Sega when it came to 3D video game development OR the hardware the games ran on. Model 1, 2 and 3 just absolutely blew anything else available out of the water save for some of Namco's 3D platforms...and even then Sega always still had the edge.

But for a first outing in proper 3D, Virtua Racing is still a game that is highly regarded as an absolute classic. Somehow Sega managed to avoid the "3D growing pains" devs usually found when transitioning from 2D sprite based game development to the triangle era of polygons and 3D engines. It doesn't hurt that the racing is just straight up iconic!

But that got me thinking GAF...what devs nailed 3D out of the gate and what devs just totally tripped?

Namco says hello

 

[clem84]

I remember an arcade game, all in 3D, where you just drove on a track, sometimes you would drive on loops, and you had checkpoints (I think). It was extremely primitive and it ran like total shit. The framerate was atrocious. That's the first 3D game with textured polygons that I remember.

The first 3D game I remember was Star wars arcade.

Was it 'Hard drivin'?

edit: Yes!

 

[SF Kosmo]

Atari had Hard Drivin around the same time. Which was where real early 3D in the arcades took off,

Yes, but that's not what this thread is about. It's about the devs that managed to create a 3D game on their very first try that actually holds up, and Hard Drivin' is neither Atari's first 3D game, nor a game that holds up very well today. It was obviously a very successful game commercially, but I think there are reasons that game doesn't endure as a classic quite the way that Virtua Racing did, and that speaks to the two things I just mentioned.

Hard Drivin is pretty sluggish to play, with a choppy framerate, and it leans real hard into its somewhat underbaked 3D physics and the novelty of the third dimension, but the execution isn't 100% there. It was all very cool, but it isn't the sort of thing that plays great if you sit down with it today, where I can show my daughter Virtua Racing and she still gets why it's fun.

As for succeeded this depends on your criteria for success, but if you are talking in technology working with US military contractors helped a lot.

I'm just talking about succeeding as a quality game, really, I think that's the point of this thread.

As for double Analog, that was a popular camera control method on computers, but not so much consoles until Xbox 1

I don't rememeber dual analog with one stick controlling yaw/pitch and the other controlling movement being popularized on PC before consoles. Terminator Future Shock and later Quake popularized mouselook, which is kind of the forebear to dual analog, and 6DOF games would kind of let you invent your own layout if you wanted, but PC games in that day were seldom built around controllers like that.

Tomb Raider became a popular method to imitate for that reason. The worst one had to be those early 3D console games that had your character move like a grid and you had no control on how much you stepped forward or not and would always walk the same big distance in either direction. Made action games and TPS a pain to play. Especially if they had pits.

I think this is a trope borrowed from 2D cinematic platformers like Flashback, Blackthorne, and Prince of Persia. You can see that connection more directly in, say, Fade to Black. It was clunky, but it made sense in games that were built around that sort of traversal.

 

[Business]

haha do you realize how expensive segas model 1 arcades were? $35,000-41,000 for the normal versions in todays money, $68,000 for the deluxe, all the way up to $700,000 for the 4 player virtua formula edition

Nobody said they had to make a 1:1 Model 1 home version for 300$, just make a machine that doesn't shit the bed in 3D vs it's console peers.

 

[Spukc]

Nobody said they had to make a 1:1 Model 1 home version for 300$, just make a machine that doesn't shit the bed in 3D vs it's console peers.

yes you did now say you are sorry

 

[VGEsoterica]

Nobody said they had to make a 1:1 Model 1 home version for 300$, just make a machine that doesn't shit the bed in 3D vs it's console peers.

haha Sega thought the home market was going to super amazing 2D games in the 32 bit generation. They read the room incorrectly. So they had to pivot and get something done quickly

 

[UnNamed]

Namco also probably deserves some credit with Winning Run as well, which was quite a bit earlier than Virtua Racing.

Yes, and that moving cabinet was crazy

 

[Spukc]

Yes, and that moving cabinet was crazy

i miss arcades

 

[RAIDEN1]

Sure Sega technically had a 3D game in the 80's, but good luck remembering the name of that game! (it was Sub Roc 3D and technically its still 2D....fun little fact)

But Virtua Racing was the definitive line in the sand for Sega going from a developer of purely 2D video games to embracing 3D and being the market leader of the technology. Because throughout the 90s barely anyone could touch Sega when it came to 3D video game development OR the hardware the games ran on. Model 1, 2 and 3 just absolutely blew anything else available out of the water save for some of Namco's 3D platforms...and even then Sega always still had the edge.

But for a first outing in proper 3D, Virtua Racing is still a game that is highly regarded as an absolute classic. Somehow Sega managed to avoid the "3D growing pains" devs usually found when transitioning from 2D sprite based game development to the triangle era of polygons and 3D engines. It doesn't hurt that the racing is just straight up iconic!

But that got me thinking GAF...what devs nailed 3D out of the gate and what devs just totally tripped?

Shamed they dragged their heels when it came to the domestic market and the Saturn, where they got caught out by Sony and for Sega they were never the same again.....

 

[Futaleufu]

SNK wasn't really later, I think HyperNeogeo was 96, 97, but it was basically console quality in comparison to what other companies were putting out. in the arcades, in some ways worse.

Only Sega and maybe Atari/Midway had better 3D hardware than the HNG64 at the time of its release. People use FF Wild Ambition as some sort of proof of "console quality" when the port is a pale imitation of the arcade original.

Yes, but that's not what this thread is about. It's about the devs that managed to create a 3D game on their very first try that actually holds up, and Hard Drivin' is neither Atari's first 3D game, nor a game that holds up very well today. It was obviously a very successful game commercially, but I think there are reasons that game doesn't endure as a classic quite the way that Virtua Racing did, and that speaks to the two things I just mentioned.

Hard Drivin is pretty sluggish to play, with a choppy framerate, and it leans real hard into its somewhat underbaked 3D physics and the novelty of the third dimension, but the execution isn't 100% there. It was all very cool, but it isn't the sort of thing that plays great if you sit down with it today, where I can show my daughter Virtua Racing and she still gets why it's fun.

Hard Drivin was the first 3D racing game released in arcades and from what I've read a huge influence on all 3D racing games from japanese developers. It has not endured as a classic because besides the PC port all console ports are crap and currently there is no way to play the arcade game on modern systems while games like VR were ported to Switch and are readily available. Framerate wasnt choppy but closer to 20 than 30 fps, a far cry from the single digit home releases.

 

[SF Kosmo]

Hard Drivin was the first 3D racing game released in arcades and from what I've read a huge influence on all 3D racing games from japanese developers.

Winning Run beat it by a few months. And had a much better frame rate.

It has not endured as a classic because besides the PC port all console ports are crap and currently there is no way to play the arcade game on modern systems while games like VR were ported to Switch and are readily available. Framerate wasnt choppy but closer to 20 than 30 fps, a far cry from the single digit home releases.

It was like 12-15 fps, man. Yes, much better than the home ports which could dip down to like 5 or 6 fps, but it was noticeably sluggish.

 

[Scotty W]

haha do you realize how expensive segas model 1 arcades were? $35,000-41,000 for the normal versions in todays money, $68,000 for the deluxe, all the way up to $700,000 for the 4 player virtua formula edition

I sure do, that is why it is such a tragedy this never came to the ps1, so we could have seen it at home with true 3d.

 

[VGEsoterica]

Winning Run beat it by a few months. And had a much better frame rate.


It was like 12-15 fps, man. Yes, much better than the home ports which could dip down to like 5 or 6 fps, but it was noticeably sluggish.

framerate matters!

 

[SaintALia]

Atari had Hard Drivin around the same time. Which was where real early 3D in the arcades took off,

As for succeeded this depends on your criteria for success, but if you are talking in technology working with US military contractors helped a lot.

Still the next best were able to under cut Sega on price while still having graphics to wow players, which was the death blow to the model 3 despite how impressive it was. Along with Sega thinking people would continue paying while everyone elses deals got better.



SNK wasn't really later, I think HyperNeogeo was 96, 97, but it was basically console quality in comparison to what other companies were putting out. in the arcades, in some ways worse.

As for double Analog, that was a popular camera control method on computers, but not so much consoles until Xbox 1, and while there were a small few games that had that control most games people experienced on PS1 didn't use it, heck many of them didn't use the right stick at all unless they were games that were suitable for Sony's dual joystick, which is where the Dual controllers came from (not the N64 like people think) like Ace Combat or Decent.

Since the other consoles had one stick, N64, DC, Saturn, there was very limited use of dual stick usage for the camera until developers made it standard from the Xbox, for FP and TP games. DC only had one stick because according to the maker of the controller, Japanese devs didn't want a second stick. Some were still making games using the dpad, there was resistance to even one analog stick being standard despite two consoles forcing it.

Playing games before that is interesting though. They all tried to do something different involving the one stick, or no stick and using the Dpad with unique solutions to try and make up for the lack of camera control.

Tomb Raider became a popular method to imitate for that reason. The worst one had to be those early 3D console games that had your character move like a grid and you had no control on how much you stepped forward or not and would always walk the same big distance in either direction. Made action games and TPS a pain to play. Especially if they had pits.

The dual analogue and saturn controller comment weren't in response to camera controls, they were in response to control of a character in a 3D space. You couldn't control the camera in Nights iirc, and I think it did it's own thing in Bug, though analogue controls would not have much benefit in Bug. I did another paragraph to distance the subjects, but I guess by putting in 'good thing' to start it out, it sort of ran into it make it seem like it was still about the camera controls. My bad.

As for SNK, Samurai Shodown 64, FF and Buriki One came on the HyperNeo Geo, but I don't recall them getting glowing reviews(gonna need to dig up some old game mags to confirm that one tho) and the rest of their franchises didn't go 3D till the 2000s. Well apart from that Rally game I guess. I mention SNK as more of comparison to their 2D efforts, which I and others at the time, felt the 3D games were not matching up to. By that time I think Namco and especially Sega were putting out some great and fast paced 3D fighting games. Can't quite remember what Capcom was working on during that era. I remember their SFEX games, Rival Schools, but that's about it. But we did get some banger 3D fighting games during that era, and I distinctly remember no 3D SNK games were on that banger list. I'd probably put even Square's efforts over SNK's during that time(Eghreiz an Bushido Blade).

And yeah, I think TR became a good model to clone controls from until analogues were in full swing.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

Hard Drivin is pretty sluggish to play, with a choppy framerate, and it leans real hard into its somewhat underbaked 3D physics and the novelty of the third dimension, but the execution isn't 100% there. It was all very cool, but it isn't the sort of thing that plays great if you sit down with it today, where I can show my daughter Virtua Racing and she still gets why it's fun.

I see people complain about VR all the time as hard to go back and play and they usually go back to Daytona. People still play Hard Drivin and have tried modding it.

It really depends on the person really, and whether the person is a fan of a simulation or a straight-froward racing title. It's the difference between Winning Run and Hard Drivin as well since both released close to each other. IMO, both have some drawbacks but they're both good enough to play these days. Well, the arcade version of both of course, not the console versions of either.

I don't rememeber dual analog with one stick controlling yaw/pitch and the other controlling movement being popularized on PC before consoles. Terminator Future Shock and later Quake popularized mouselook, which is kind of the forebear to dual analog, and 6DOF games would kind of let you invent your own layout if you wanted, but PC games in that day were seldom built around controllers like that.

Almost every third person game, or game with a third-person option on PC with open levels/worlds that supported analog had dual analog stick control as an option for the camera. Before that it was the keyboard and one stick. Even flight sims had it for a few games. Vehicular games were swarming with that option.

Heck, Sony's dual joysticks had a couple games that supported that (somewhat) which were based on PC analog joysticks. Although they were a tad too long imo.

Only Sega and maybe Atari/Midway had better 3D hardware than the HNG64 at the time of its release. People use FF Wild Ambition as some sort of proof of "console quality" when the port is a pale imitation of the arcade original.

Sega, Namco, Atari, Midway, and Konami.

Also maybe Taito?

Fighters Impact a

Wild Ambition arcade

Hyper 64 was a bit iffy there.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

The dual analogue and saturn controller comment weren't in response to camera controls, they were in response to control of a character in a 3D space. You couldn't control the camera in Nights iirc, and I think it did it's own thing in Bug, though analogue controls would not have much benefit in Bug. I did another paragraph to distance the subjects, but I guess by putting in 'good thing' to start it out, it sort of ran into it make it seem like it was still about the camera controls. My bad.

As for SNK, Samurai Shodown 64, FF and Buriki One came on the HyperNeo Geo, but I don't recall them getting glowing reviews(gonna need to dig up some old game mags to confirm that one tho) and the rest of their franchises didn't go 3D till the 2000s. Well apart from that Rally game I guess. I mention SNK as more of comparison to their 2D efforts, which I and others at the time, felt the 3D games were not matching up to. By that time I think Namco and especially Sega were putting out some great and fast paced 3D fighting games. Can't quite remember what Capcom was working on during that era. I remember their SFEX games, Rival Schools, but that's about it. But we did get some banger 3D fighting games during that era, and I distinctly remember no 3D SNK games were on that banger list. I'd probably put even Square's efforts over SNK's during that time(Eghreiz an Bushido Blade).

And yeah, I think TR became a good model to clone controls from until analogues were in full swing.

Yeah, many games kept using TR's formula into the 2000's until right stick became standard and really analog in general instead of it being implemented as a gimmick.

However, I don't erggeiz was better than any of the Hyper 64 games it was pretty bad from what I remember. lol

 

[kuncol02]

what devs nailed 3D out of the gate

IdSoftware and it don't even matter which of their game you consider as first 3d game.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

IdSoftware and it don't even matter which of their game you consider as first 3d game.

None of their first 3D games were 3D thought, so it's literally just Quake. Since the title says true 3D.

 

[VGEsoterica]

The dual analogue and saturn controller comment weren't in response to camera controls, they were in response to control of a character in a 3D space. You couldn't control the camera in Nights iirc, and I think it did it's own thing in Bug, though analogue controls would not have much benefit in Bug. I did another paragraph to distance the subjects, but I guess by putting in 'good thing' to start it out, it sort of ran into it make it seem like it was still about the camera controls. My bad.

As for SNK, Samurai Shodown 64, FF and Buriki One came on the HyperNeo Geo, but I don't recall them getting glowing reviews(gonna need to dig up some old game mags to confirm that one tho) and the rest of their franchises didn't go 3D till the 2000s. Well apart from that Rally game I guess. I mention SNK as more of comparison to their 2D efforts, which I and others at the time, felt the 3D games were not matching up to. By that time I think Namco and especially Sega were putting out some great and fast paced 3D fighting games. Can't quite remember what Capcom was working on during that era. I remember their SFEX games, Rival Schools, but that's about it. But we did get some banger 3D fighting games during that era, and I distinctly remember no 3D SNK games were on that banger list. I'd probably put even Square's efforts over SNK's during that time(Eghreiz an Bushido Blade).

And yeah, I think TR became a good model to clone controls from until analogues were in full swing.

I have all seven Hyper Neo Geo games in my collection. They range from good to great but graphically they were behind the curve

 

[rabbity-thing]

But that got me thinking GAF...what devs nailed 3D out of the gate

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

I have all seven Hyper Neo Geo games in my collection. They range from good to great but graphically they were behind the curve

They released it too late imo.

 

[JC 1080P CRT]

But that got me thinking GAF...what devs nailed 3D out of the gate and what devs just totally tripped?

This nomination fits more in the middle than toward either extreme, but:

Spoiler: Bomberman 64

Even if the graphics are simple and dated, I think Hudson Soft did well with giving Bomberman more freedom to move around in open environments.
As far as 3D Bombermans I personally preferred Bomberman Hero, but I think Hudson didn't do too poorly with their first attempt.

 

[SF Kosmo]

Almost every third person game, or game with a third-person option on PC with open levels/worlds that supported analog had dual analog stick control as an option for the camera.

Maybe if you had two flight sticks and did some creative controller remapping, but this was hardly "normal" or how most games were designed. Game pads on PC were still mostly digital or single analog until after Xbox was released.

Generally those games were designed around mouse and keyboard more than anything.

Before that it was the keyboard and one stick. Even flight sims had it for a few games. Vehicular games were swarming with that option.

Yeah, for flight games it was normal to have a stick and a second throttle controller plugged into two different ports. But I think this is not very comparable to the kind of controls popularized on consoles in the Xbox era.

 

[SF Kosmo]

I have all seven Hyper Neo Geo games in my collection. They range from good to great but graphically they were behind the curve

Side note, have you looked at haze's youtube channel in the last two weeks? He's been making massive, rapid improvements to the Hyper64 driver in MAME. The sound is still busted, but those games are starting to look pretty good:

 

[VGEsoterica]

They released it too late imo.

Even if it came out in 96 it couldn’t compete with Model 3 and MAYBE could go toe to toe with Model 2. It was just a “too little too late” platform

 

[SF Kosmo]

Even if it came out in 96 it couldn’t compete with Model 3 and MAYBE could go toe to toe with Model 2. It was just a “too little too late” platform

Model 2 had filtered textures, I don't think HNG64 looked anywhere close, though they might have been in a similar ballpark in terms of how many textured polys they could throw around.

By 1997, Voodoo based boards like Midway Seattle were coming out and just completely blew it away.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

Even if it came out in 96 it couldn’t compete with Model 3 and MAYBE could go toe to toe with Model 2. It was just a “too little too late” platform

I think your being kind saying that the Hyper 64 could match the Model 2 tbh.

Maybe if you had two flight sticks and did some creative controller remapping,

Several games were designed with dual analog controllers in mind you must not have been gaming outside mainstream games like Doom or Myst on computers outside a few exceptions. Flight Sticks being the first though of analog joysticks tells me you aren't aware that there are analog joysticks that aren't flight sticks either.

Dual plain joystick was a thing too, although not anywhere near as common.

Dual analog on computer was the reason why they had games with free camera control and and movement smoothly in all direction early, as WASD would not produce the same result or the arrow keys. In fact several games were in threads you have been in showcasing that very thing by a few users. Seems all users who used makeagif for gifs got the short end since they killed 88% of their gif catalog, so the gifs are pretty much all dead now though.

it was a leading control method even in manuals. Right stick was used like it is now camera control in reticle fashion in all direction, you could also use WASD for movement, and have camera be ONE stick, although that's odd so you would use two stick most of the time.

Even Sony had a dual analog joystick, their first one, taking that compatibility into account, which is why they were gunning for PC ports to support it, as well as dual analog arcade, which is the reason why Sony always had two analog sticks.

Yeah, for flight games it was normal to have a stick and a second throttle controller plugged into two different ports. But I think this is not very comparable to the kind of controls popularized on consoles in the Xbox era.

Which isn't what I was doing, I was adding context of what was before what I said.

 

[VGEsoterica]

I think your being kind saying that the Hyper 64 could match the Model 2 tbh.



Several games were designed with dual analog controllers in mind you must not have been gaming outside mainstream games like Doom or Myst on computers outside a few exceptions. Flight Sticks being the first though of analog joysticks tells me you aren't aware that there are analog joysticks that aren't flight sticks either.

Dual plain joystick was a thing too, although not anywhere near as common.

Dual analog on computer was the reason why they had games with free camera control and and movement smoothly in all direction, as WASD would not produce the same result or the arrow keys. In fact several games were in threads you have been in showcasing that very thing by a few users. Seems all users who used makeagif for gifs got the short end since they killed 88% of their gif catalog, so the gifs are pretty much all dead now though.

it was a leading control method even in manuals. Right stick was used like it is now camera control in reticle fashion in all direction, you could also use WASD for movement, and have camera be ONE stick, although that's odd so you would use two stick most of the time.

Even Sony had a dual analog joystick, their first one, taking that compatibility into account, which is why they were gunning for PC ports to support it, as well as dual analog arcade, which is the reason why Sony always had two analog sticks.



Which isn't what I was doing, I was adding context of what was before what I said.

Put HotD against Beast Busters: Second Nightmare. Sure there are bigger pixels in Beast Busters but that game is every bit as impressive in performance Vs Model 2 IMO. Rock solid framerate, great visuals, etc

 

[JLB]

Granted a lot of the cost was the cabinet itself but yes there was no way to downsize Model 1 silicon for the home market and have it be affordable

well, sega did that a generation later with Naomi and DC

 

[VGEsoterica]

well, sega did that a generation later with Naomi and DC

Not exactly; as a design concept NAOMI was a scaled UP Dreamcast spec. So they took a design that would be affordable to sell to end users…and ADDED to it.

Take a Dreamcast, add a little extra “umph”…you have NAOMI

 

[SF Kosmo]

Several games were designed with dual analog controllers in mind you must not have been gaming outside mainstream games like Doom or Myst on computers outside a few exceptions.

It's hard to know exactly what you're talking about without a single example. I played eeeeeverything on PC back then. I can think of a handful of games that supported two analog sticks if you had them, but none outside of simulators that I would describe as "designed with them in mind," since they were very much an edge case of PC users.

Flight Sticks being the first though of analog joysticks tells me you aren't aware that there are analog joysticks that aren't flight sticks either.

No, and that's a genuinely bizarre conclusion. But a flight stick is the main kind of set up I would see people "dual wield". You COULD use two Gravis Gamesticks or whatever if you wanted I guess but who ever did that?

Dual analog on computer was the reason why they had games with free camera control and and movement smoothly in all direction, as WASD would not produce the same result or the arrow keys. In fact several games were in threads you have been in showcasing that very thing by a few users. Seems all users who used makeagif for gifs got the short end since they killed 88% of their gif catalog, so the gifs are pretty much all dead now though.

Are... are you just using "dual analog" to refer to any game with separate camera controls? That's not the same thing.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

Are... are you just using "dual analog" to refer to any game with separate camera controls? That's not the same thing.

That's not what your quote says so no. To be fair after that first sentence the word "early" was supposed to be there and didn't type, so that changed the meaning. My bad.