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[The Verge] Final Fantasy XVI has a medieval approach to diversity
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Bo_Hazem
Banned
Ash Parrish
VIDEO GAMES REPORTERAsh is a Video Games Reporter for The Verge with a focus on covering marginalized gamers and their communities, writing about the intersection of video games and sex, and finding a way to make the general video gaming public care about the Overwatch League.
"writing about the intersection of video games and sex"
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FoxMcChief
Gold Member
As a half Mexican and half white, full red blooded American, I’m outraged my peoples aren’t represented in Returnal.
This has become an obviously played-out activist tactic.
Hogwarts Legacy has proven that these types only have sway over publishers and developers if people capitulate and try to appease. They're paper tigers.
The minute you ignore them and do whatever you want, they fall apart. All of their crying and written opinion pieces won't do a damned thing.
Hogwarts Legacy has proven that these types only have sway over publishers and developers if people capitulate and try to appease. They're paper tigers.
The minute you ignore them and do whatever you want, they fall apart. All of their crying and written opinion pieces won't do a damned thing.
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Varteras
Member
Absolutely. And fuck anyone who tells you that you can't dress like a rancher or cowboy because you're Asian. Or put your hair in dreadlocks. Or play Middle Eastern music. These people will tell everyone we're "all human" and then be the first to impose bullshit restrictions. We should absolutely be willing and eager to take what all cultures bring to the table, sample them, and see what we like for ourselves. That's part of how we move forward as a species. Otherwise we're endlessly segregated.
Hugare
Member
"But while Ragnarok is a game firmly rooted in the customs and culture of Norse mythology, it still takes the time and care and effort to include characters of color like Angrboda. That game was successful in part because its developers did not let a notion of “reality” constrain what they could do with their characters and world-building. It’s a lesson a lot of new games are taking to heart, symbolizing much-needed progress within the industry."
This example is hilarious because Ragnarok was good despite the team trying to make the characters "modern", with CW low budget series dialogue and melodrama, and not in part because of it.
It was a huge downgrade to the first game in this regard
And I love that they tried to ask the same fucking question again to Yoshi-P and he just said "nah, dawg. Its still a no from me"
This example is hilarious because Ragnarok was good despite the team trying to make the characters "modern", with CW low budget series dialogue and melodrama, and not in part because of it.
It was a huge downgrade to the first game in this regard
And I love that they tried to ask the same fucking question again to Yoshi-P and he just said "nah, dawg. Its still a no from me"
GHG
Member
Brigandier
Gold Member
As a quarter White, quarter Asian ,quarter Black, quarter Martian gay bi straight upside down demi pan asexual non binary full blooded furry fisherthem I take enormous offense and I am literally shaking right now that people like me were not represented in Rez infinite.
semiconscious
Member
seriously? i gotta ask: did she say which game put it to sleep in the first place?...
fatmarco
Member
I do love when people bring up the "Moors" of all people as an example of Europe's historical diversity.
Yes, the invasive Umayyad Caliphate's conquest of Spain was a great example of Europe's diversity, the logic being that, to be truly authentic, you should have representations of every colonial force throughout history being depicted as native to the lands they invaded, even if it's anachronistic?
Would these people also like it if these types of colonial forces were depicted negatively at all?
Yes, the invasive Umayyad Caliphate's conquest of Spain was a great example of Europe's diversity, the logic being that, to be truly authentic, you should have representations of every colonial force throughout history being depicted as native to the lands they invaded, even if it's anachronistic?
Would these people also like it if these types of colonial forces were depicted negatively at all?
Kacho
Gold Member
It’s pretty much Northman vs Vikings tv show. One felt authentic and the other became so overly diverse it became impossible to take it seriously.
Johnny Concrete
Member
But they are! They are the flying cubes with tentacles.
And if you don’t believe me: you can read all about it in my article “The flying cubes with tentacles in Returnal caused my sexual awakening”.
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GHG
Member
But they do, and this has been happening for a while whenever they encounter the western press.
https://www.eurogamer.net/yoshidas-...ack-of-diversity-is-souring-say-black-players
That depends on who cares
Nobody should care. Let them make the game they want to make, none of this is important. If there is to be diversity let it happen naturally as it always has done in the series previously. It should not be forced or prompted, especially not from people outside of the creative process.
Nah I'm good. It would be better if these hack games journalists actually did their jobs instead of treating their positions as if they are for political or socialist means.
Mr.Phoenix
Member
wtf?
I would be offended if they just put a fellow person of color in there just to meet some sort of social quota. I am really beginning to hate this social warrior shit these days.
I would be offended if they just put a fellow person of color in there just to meet some sort of social quota. I am really beginning to hate this social warrior shit these days.
GHG
Member
Fair trade. Sucker Punch made a game with nothing much Japanese characters so SE is making a game with nothing but white characters.
Do you remember the circus they attempted to create around GoT?
https://www.polygon.com/2020/7/23/2...ima-kurosawa-films-samurai-japan-abe-politics
Topher
Identifies as young
Yep. And I remember when the island of Tsushima said "fuck that. we love these guys"
Ghost of Tsushima devs to be honored as tourism ambassadors for real-life island
Nate Fox and Jason Connell will be ambassadors for the island of Tsushima
The one thing you can absolutely guarantee about people like her is that they're hypocrites.
Doesn't necessarily mean they're racist themselves, of course, but they are definitely liars and just generally scummy people. So yeah they're probably more likely than the average person to be racist, even if the probability is still low.
ConkerTheSquirrel.
Member
Wow, I envy Nate Fox. Permanent ambassador of Tsushima? I would be honoured if I was him. Would probably buy property there, too.Yep. And I remember when the island of Tsushima said "fuck that. we love these guys"
Ghost of Tsushima devs to be honored as tourism ambassadors for real-life island
Nate Fox and Jason Connell will be ambassadors for the island of Tsushimawww.gamesradar.com
March Climber
Member
You linked...to the same developer being asked a similar question. I thought you were about to bring forth an entire hidden history of diversity questions aimed towards JP devs that I didn't know about. Unless that happens I still think that this it's a new topic for JP developers and it provides a good challenge for them in terms of how to answer. Again, many here would not have clicked if this were yet another thread pointing out an interview where he is asked about gameplay systems.
Then no one will know about their game. They have to do media runs, same with movie actors and directors, book writers, manga creators, etc. It's all a part of how things operate. You're going to be asked uncomfortable questions, it's part of the gig. The more audiences they manage to grab, the more sales they have. This audience is just one that you happen to not agree with. It doesn't mean that they don't have money, because they do. And as a creator you want their money too.
No one forced him to do anything, and the developer answered that 'tough' diversity question the best way he could and didn't buckle to any 'pressure'. The hope is that the audience who cares about that topic still buys the game, because in the end that's more money.
They are. They're being journalists. This one is asking questions that's important to her and others ask questions important to them. The website this person works for has an audience that reads it and provides clicks. They are doing their job
If they weren't, we wouldn't be having discussion threads like these.Don't let this stuff rile you up too much man, this interview might have been a simple 15-20 minutes and then both parties moved on. That's all there is to it.
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DarthPutin
Member
Mind you, if game devs want to add all kind of characters, I am all for it, however, insisting on it is just bizarre.
Those are japanese creators, and they don't even have japanese characters in game (at least that I could see, I don't look for spoilers). Japanese people are totally a minority compared to many other ethnicities, wouldn't they start by adding their own "race" if they were concerned about it? Why should they make up for US representation problems, if we accept that any creator has to do it at all? What a "problematic" US-centric worldview.
And if it's about representation in general, where does it stop? is it their moral duty to add inuit characters (absolute minorities), polynesians, native americans.... and if not, why not? Are some minorities superior to other minorities? There are many more black than inuit characters in fiction, so it's a bigger problem, no? How many characters do you have to have in your game?
I feel like you'd go nuts if you took this thought to its logical conclusion and tried to stay intellectually consistent.
Those are japanese creators, and they don't even have japanese characters in game (at least that I could see, I don't look for spoilers). Japanese people are totally a minority compared to many other ethnicities, wouldn't they start by adding their own "race" if they were concerned about it? Why should they make up for US representation problems, if we accept that any creator has to do it at all? What a "problematic" US-centric worldview.
And if it's about representation in general, where does it stop? is it their moral duty to add inuit characters (absolute minorities), polynesians, native americans.... and if not, why not? Are some minorities superior to other minorities? There are many more black than inuit characters in fiction, so it's a bigger problem, no? How many characters do you have to have in your game?
I feel like you'd go nuts if you took this thought to its logical conclusion and tried to stay intellectually consistent.
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GHG
Member
So much waffle here but I'm going to touch on this because you're ignoring the evidence. These people don't have money, never have and never will. The people who do have money don't give a fuck and are only concerned about the quality of the product on offer.
If you're closet woke (or a step beyond that maybe) that's not my business, you do you. But don't waste your time trying to justify this crap to me - I don't care, never will and by and large the people who do care have fuck all to offer society.
lughnasadh123
Member
Personally I don't think anything is gained or lost by having a more diverse color cast, but it would have a nice benefit of other groups feeling included in it. Being very, VERY loosely based in reality is a damn near pathetic masking the real reason of them just not wanting to do it.
FunkMiller
Member
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I'm all for diversity when it's not performative action pushed for clout so a media brand can boast about their progressivity and image, like Disney does race swapping characters from classic stories and I respect artists visions and how they want to depict their own created worlds
These "journalists" and their western cosmopolitan normative they live can't and shouldn't be applied to every piece of media just so they can feel "seen" or better with themselves, the sense of entitlement from these groups is crazy
These "journalists" and their western cosmopolitan normative they live can't and shouldn't be applied to every piece of media just so they can feel "seen" or better with themselves, the sense of entitlement from these groups is crazy
Hero of Spielberg
Member
'Ash is a Video Games Reporter for The Verge with a focus on covering marginalized gamers and their communities ...'
If by 'marginalised gamers' she means people living in self-imposed exile from normal society, then yes I suppose she probably does write about them.
If by 'marginalised gamers' she means people living in self-imposed exile from normal society, then yes I suppose she probably does write about them.
T4keD0wN
Member
This again, its their game so it should be their choice.
While i gotta admit that she makes a pretty good point here and reading the headline saying Final Fantasy XVI has a medieval approach to diversity would made me assume that there would be diversity which i am all for if thats what the creators want, but if thats the fictional setting that they want to create so be it. Good thing about fictional media is that it doesnt have to be representative of reality, so his response about wanting to be faithful to europe is the only thing here that actually looks bad.
I dont see why that would be a problem. Why does the writer want to disrupt their creative vision and tell them how to do their work? They shouldnt have to justify what theyre doing in the first place.
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March Climber
Member
Rallying against an audience doesn't help a person earn more money as a creative, it just earns you more headaches. If you want to justify it in some backwards thinking way by calling them broke, that's on you. I'm not closet anything lol. I can be greedy(and somewhat apathetic too), and you should be greedy too. Play the games in life that need to be played, create a fake smile in order to get what you need out of life, and move on...because humans don't last long on earth and it isn't worth rallying online to care enough about what some online journalist said in some interview that will be forgotten a week from now.
tl;dr, continue to not care about them and care about their wallets instead.
TheInfamousKira
Reseterror Resettler
Why doesn't this bitch be the change she wants to see? Nothing is stopping her from sacking up and becoming a dev herself, and then she can make Fantasy epics of a 70% black Nazi Germany where all the fascists are scarlet lettered in the form of a giant rotating dragon dildo permanently affixed to their foreheads, a UniHorn, if you will, and you can get your 1.5k ally pity sales and leave authorial dictatorship to the author dictating. Fuck the whole way off and crawl into one of those Xbox holes you're so petrified of. Shit.
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It does. Why are goblins considered anti-semitic? Because they people complaining see jews as goblins. They project their internal beliefs onto others to push their racism onto others and absolve themselves of their internal racists thoughts and beliefs.
Rykan
Member
My favorite part of the article is the clear racism that is on display in articles such as these. Props to the producer for standing up to it and saying that the historical accuracies and believability of our setting takes precedent over your desire to feel represented in every single piece of entertainment you consume.
The argument that it's a fantasy setting and therefore race and gender of the real world don't need to apply isn't very compelling. The reason Fantasy games like these are fascinating is that it adds Fantasy elements to an otherwise realistic backdrop and setting. We also know that it's not a genuine argument either: We saw similar articles pop up around the launch of Kingdom Come: Deliverance. A game that goes for a realistic simulation of Medieval Bohemia.
Because the real question isn't: “Why are there no people of color?” the real question that is being asked is: “Why isn't this game more like America?”
I say this with all possible respect to my American friends on GAF, but Americans (And I really don't intend to stereotype here) are used to having every bit of media they consume either be about America or pandered to America in some way shape or form. The music you listen to is mostly in English and domestically produced. The movies you watch are American, and most of them are about Americans. Most of the games played by Americans are either made in America or about America if they take place in a real world setting. Every foreign piece of media you watch is most likely dubbed and scripts are adjusted to comply with American culture and values.
European works of Literature & Mythology such as Peter Pan, The Lord of the Rings or Norse Mythology are appropriated by American Companies and then changed drastically to racially diversify them so that they look more like Present day America.
Just look at video games more closely: If you're playing an Open World game that takes place in a modern setting, there's a 90% chance that it will take place in America. Even if you have a wild concept like Robot Dinosaurs, like the Horizon games for example, that still somehow happen to take place in America.
It's telling because racial relationships are a much debated topic in the US that the writer wants to see represented in her video games as well. That's why she's specifically asking about representation for Black People, even though Final Fantasy XVI will have (most likely) just as much “lacking” representation of Indian people, Latino people or Arabic people.
The anti-white racism is clearly a motivator here. Nobody will complain about the lack of "Diversity" in a game like Ghost of Tsushima. Nobody will ask why there aren't more black people in Wo - Long, where the only black character will probably be the one you make your own. Everyone is entitled to their own history and culture, except when it involves Caucasians.
The argument that it's a fantasy setting and therefore race and gender of the real world don't need to apply isn't very compelling. The reason Fantasy games like these are fascinating is that it adds Fantasy elements to an otherwise realistic backdrop and setting. We also know that it's not a genuine argument either: We saw similar articles pop up around the launch of Kingdom Come: Deliverance. A game that goes for a realistic simulation of Medieval Bohemia.
Because the real question isn't: “Why are there no people of color?” the real question that is being asked is: “Why isn't this game more like America?”
I say this with all possible respect to my American friends on GAF, but Americans (And I really don't intend to stereotype here) are used to having every bit of media they consume either be about America or pandered to America in some way shape or form. The music you listen to is mostly in English and domestically produced. The movies you watch are American, and most of them are about Americans. Most of the games played by Americans are either made in America or about America if they take place in a real world setting. Every foreign piece of media you watch is most likely dubbed and scripts are adjusted to comply with American culture and values.
European works of Literature & Mythology such as Peter Pan, The Lord of the Rings or Norse Mythology are appropriated by American Companies and then changed drastically to racially diversify them so that they look more like Present day America.
Just look at video games more closely: If you're playing an Open World game that takes place in a modern setting, there's a 90% chance that it will take place in America. Even if you have a wild concept like Robot Dinosaurs, like the Horizon games for example, that still somehow happen to take place in America.
It's telling because racial relationships are a much debated topic in the US that the writer wants to see represented in her video games as well. That's why she's specifically asking about representation for Black People, even though Final Fantasy XVI will have (most likely) just as much “lacking” representation of Indian people, Latino people or Arabic people.
The anti-white racism is clearly a motivator here. Nobody will complain about the lack of "Diversity" in a game like Ghost of Tsushima. Nobody will ask why there aren't more black people in Wo - Long, where the only black character will probably be the one you make your own. Everyone is entitled to their own history and culture, except when it involves Caucasians.
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phaedrus
Member
TheInfamousKira
Reseterror Resettler
American here, totally agree. America isn't the center of the universe, and people like me LOVE foreign made or foreign set films, SPECIFICALLY because they aren't representative of shit I see IRL everyday. If these people ever logged out of Twitter and went outside, they may get bored of wanting to paint every surface with the same hue of Americana paint.
Saw a YouTube video by a guy I can't recall the name of, but he went off on how Westerners complain about shit like "Shonen not appealing enough to a female demographic," when Shonen literally means BOYS COMICS. These people are so inundated with their first world messiah complex, that they ignorantly and willingly trample over other cultures very functional methods to make their bad points.
Azurro
Banned
The problem with the people writing these articles is, well, aside from the fact that what they want to be writing about is politics and not games, is that they have no life experience, they have not travelled and are profoundly ignorant of the wider world they live in and have no respect for it. They live or want to live in a place like New York or LA and they want every single piece of media to be exactly like that. If it is white, then it's worse because they believe it shouldn't exist, because it's racist to them to only see white people. Of course the same criteria doesn't apply to a setting featuring Africans or Asians, because of course it doesn't, victim mentality.
Anyway, they are wastes of oxygen, those writers have nothing useful to contribute to this planet, wastes of space.
Anyway, they are wastes of oxygen, those writers have nothing useful to contribute to this planet, wastes of space.
Lethal01
Member
Japan was pretty well documented for just how rare non asian races were, It's not true of Medeival Europe is the opposite, Now ofcourse it would be silly to make 10% of the population black/indian etc. But it would just be more "Historically accurate" if other races existed as traders and such.
So I could agree that it's silly of Yoshida simply saying "Historical accuracy" as a reason for a total lack of diversity, it's just inline with depictions of it. Especially when they are including Desert kingdoms that look more inspired by middle eastern culture.
Edit: scratch that I thought this was based on a prior interview, his current answer is way more sensible.
That all said I'm fine with if he simply said "I want it to look like lord of the rings"
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Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
It’s same shit with Astral chain interview, they asked about how the game will tackle police violence. Is like the interviewer has no fucking idea what actual game is about and devs have to shove political issues in every fucking game regardless it actually make sense with game’s actual story or not.
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Neolombax
Member
If we're going balls deep with this inclusivity, where is the asian representation in games huh? You guys do know that asian does not equate to just Chinese/Korean/Japanese people right? Where are the Malaysians, Thais, Indonesians, Filipinos etc? See how insignificant that sounds? Because it doesn't matter.
When I play Final Fantasy, I want to see magical explosions and stuff. Having an in game character represent my race isn't going to make the game substantially better. Did Final Fantasy 13 become a hit because they included Sazh? Yea, thats what I thought.
When I play Final Fantasy, I want to see magical explosions and stuff. Having an in game character represent my race isn't going to make the game substantially better. Did Final Fantasy 13 become a hit because they included Sazh? Yea, thats what I thought.
If Yoshida is worried FF might be becoming more niche, she should have asked why the game only release on one platform on day one...
As for the rest i don't care, but maybe i'm wrong but isn't the guy who possess Titan more dark skinned ? Since she mentions Dalmakia as something influenced by middle east as if Yoshida is contradicting himself. But it does seem he is precisely from this country and is dark skinned.
As for the rest i don't care, but maybe i'm wrong but isn't the guy who possess Titan more dark skinned ? Since she mentions Dalmakia as something influenced by middle east as if Yoshida is contradicting himself. But it does seem he is precisely from this country and is dark skinned.
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