Croatoan
They/Them A-10 Warthog
Games are in a really weird place right now. There is a complete disconnect between the west, the east, gamers and developers about what is acceptable in a character's design. What makes this all the worse is that it seems that, in the west at least, games are being held at a different standard from movies, TV, fashion, and even reality. A lot of it doesn't makes sense, and even what does gets obfuscated by the polarization of social politics in this day and age. We get a lot of surface area threads about this topic, usually focusing on female characters. I though it might be time to take a real deep dive into the topic and really discuss this issue by looking at not just how women are portrayed, but the oft forgotten about men as well.
All of us are going to have our own opinions on this subject, and in this OP I am just going brush the surface of the topic by laying out some of my own beliefs. I am not a great technical writer, so please excuse what follows. I just want to start the discussion. Feel free to rip me apart.
First off I do not believe Sexualization is bad at all. In fact I love "sexy" well designed characters so long as they make sense. Now I can already hear some of yall starting to grumble, readying up your "Just go watch porn," lazy retorts, so let me head you off for a moment and discuss what I mean by sexy.
Sexy doesn't necessarily mean half naked, or otherwise showing a lot of skin, and like a lot of things sexiness comes in a spectrum that has centerfolds on one side and a mom who found a really good pair of jeans on the other. Sexiness also isn't just perceived externally, it also plays an important role in the average persons internal feelings. For the average woman or man wearing something that makes them feel sexy is empowering and boosts self confidence. What that something is can be completely different depending on your gender though.
The pictures above depict women wearing something sexy, or at least what I define as sexy. Two of those outfits (OG lara croft, and Jennifer Lawrence's dress) are seen as too sexualized for the modern day. There was even a social uproar over JLaw's dress because people were claiming she was forced to wear something so scandalous and degrading. "She is being OBJECTIFIED!!!!" they cried. JLaw later came out in support of the dress and went as far as to say not only did she love it but that she CHOSE to wear it. I am not going to claim to know JLaw's thoughts but if she is telling the truth, and is like other women, then she probably chose to wear the dress because it made her feel good, or powerful, or some positive emotion. Heaven forbid a woman wants to look sexy.
The truth is women wear sexy things all the time. I live in a college town and I am honestly astonished at how little 20 something women cover themselves in public. Its not a bad astonishment mind you, I mean I don't complain, but its definitely eye opening. My wife and I like to play a game at the grocery store called, "Who is trying way too hard", where we point out some of the ridiculous outfits. The winner almost always goes to some chick who showed up in basically her underwear, or some granola girl who is really proud of how her nipples look through her sheer top. I am not exaggerating here either. We have 70 thousand students here in a hot state. 40 thousand of which are women. Shit is insane. Those are the extreme examples though, the average look for a college aged woman seems something like this.
Add in the the running shorts with massive sorority/fraternity shirts and that is the average college aged woman's look in Texas during the summer, fall and spring. If you take a gander and the 30 and 40 something women around town they generally wear more conservative versions of those outfits that are slightly out of date fashion wise (basically more conservative versions of what THEY wore in college).
So, given that, at least in Texas, women are A) Not afraid of their figure, B) Not afraid of showing a lot of bare thigh, C) really really like athletic wear... Why the hell is OG Lara Croft deemed overly sexualized again? I mean she is literally wearing athletic clothing that makes sense both fashionably and for the type of "Athletic" things she does. To be honest NuLara's pants would get really uncomfortable after a while for Tomb Raiding, especially when wet. I honestly wonder the same thing about Nathan Drake. I've done a fair bit of hiking around and holy shit I would not want to do that in those cargo pants, in the heat...Give me athletic shorts any day. That said I don't really have a problem with NuLara, or Nathan Drake's designs. I simple don't understand what is wrong with Old Lara.
Ohh, her boobs you say? Well let me tell you something, my wife isn't fat and she has Fs....women with big boobs exist. I wouldn't exactly say she is prime for tomb raiding though as big boobs are actually a hindrance athletically (its uncomfortable for my wife to jog even with 2 sports bras on), but OG Lara's were never really that big anyways.
So what exactly is wrong with OG Lara? She was badass, had attitude, looked good, was super athletic, fit and hyper smart. Her underworld Character Design is Awesome IMO. What gives? (wink wink)
Now you probably already realized the problem with the images above. JLaw and JLove are both real women and have a say in how they look (I fully realize JLove was probably told to wear that for the movie but I chose that picture because its an example of what a normal college aged woman wore when I was in school, oh memories). Video game characters aren't real and thus their look is entirely designed to be perceived externally (cuz they have no internal lol) by a third party. This problem also arises when movie or TV shows force men and women into outfits that they wouldn't normally wear (still happens). At this point we really need to start talking about objectification but before we do lets talk about men for a bit.
Men and women are different in so many ways, including how sexiness is perceived in both gender. To start with men have a much wider spectrum on what is deemed sexy, and for the most part a sexy man doesn't seem to equate to skin showing or skin tight clothing. Age seems to be nearly meaningless as well. I included a picture of Tom Selleck because my wife (30s) and just about all of her friends think he is sexy as hell. And he isn't the only older actor that gets to them. The average definition of a sexy man is basically, Nathan Drake or, for a real life example, Chris Hemsworth in well fit suit. Do women like seeing Hemsworth's abs? Well yeah, and they would likely show up for a movie with him playing Kratos (even if horribly miscast lol), but that is more the exception than the norm. So why did I add Kratos to the images above? Well mostly to segue into the next topic, The Fallacy of the Male Power Fantasy.
So yeah, lets do this. For years we have been told by a certain population that the idea of a naked barbarian is male power fantasy. The only problem is Men don't feel more powerful when we wear less clothes. In fact its women who gain power both internally and externally when they dress down. A man's sense of sexiness, or power, isn't really tied as much into what we wear, and when it is, it tends to be how "Sharp" or "cool" we look. I mean, cis-guys, when was the last time you wore a low cut v neck and got a boost of good feelings for showing some chest hair? Nathan Drake, or a cool looking man with a gun/sword, is the closest thing to a real male power fantasy.
So why does Kratos look the way he does? Well, he is based on actual historical men mixed with somebody's love of Conan the Barbarian. He is muscular to make it believable that he could fight freaking massive monsters and win. All the other stuff is just to look cool. There is no power fantasy here (other than supernatural strength). He doesn't even top lists of hottest male characters, Nathan Drake, Geralt and...uhh...Link... top those lists. All that said I would consider what Kratos wears as sexy, in the same way that a shirtless Hemsworth is sexy. Speaking of shirtless men, have any of you notice how blatant Netflix and movies have gotten with their "Man takes shirt off or otherwise gets naked" scenes"? The way the camera leers at them is hilarious at times, and some of the scenes don't even makes sense! Have you also noticed how these same scenes don't really happen with women anymore. I mean, they used to back in the 80s and 90s, but now...those cheap ass scenes have gone the way of the dinosaur, and that's a good thing.
Why? Because ladies and gents those scenes serve no purpose other than to objectify. This is something that the frothing blue haired masses have gotten right. The only problem is they are all hypocrites that believe the "Fallacy of the Male Power Fantasy" which basically states "Men can't be objectified because its all a power fantasy to them". So yeah, lets finish by really getting into objectification.
The basic definition of objectification is the action of degrading someone, or a character, to the status of a mere object. In my opinion this definition is too broad and is ripe for abuse. Personally I believe the definition needs to take in account the setting and thematical elements of a work of art. So a better definition would be, objectification is the action of degrading someone, or a character, to the status of a mere object, or an other, relative to a piece of fictions setting and thematical elements. The best way I can explain my thoughts is that if you have a fantasy world were all of the men wear plate armor, and the women wear chainmail bikinis then you are indeed objectifying women because you are treating them as an other (Basically they are following different rules). On the flip side if you have a game were both women and men are scantly clad then there is no objectification because you are not creating an "Other", the rules are the same for everyone.
For example look at Conan's world (images above). Everyone is basically half naked, and when everyone is half naked then nobody is being objectified, nobody is an other. Basically what I am trying to get at is that objectification is bad, but Sexiness doesn't automatically mean objectification as the Authoritarian Left would have you believe. The two can be divorced so long as there is logical consistency in appearances across the genders. Want a modern day example?
Both Cap and BW are wearing skin tight costumes designed to both look cool, and make them look good. There is nothing wrong with this type of "sexiness". Neither is being objectified.
Another way to look at it is that we cannot compare a work of fiction to the real world and claim objectification. The world of fiction can only be compared to itself to find out if objectification is happening. If you have a game with only one human character then there is no way to claim the character is being objectified because there is nothing to compare it with. For this reason, and leering camera angles aside, Eve from Project Eve cannot be considered to be objectified unless we see the other humans in her world. You simply cannot compare the mores of a fictional world with that of the real world. Doing so destroys the point of art.
That said, modern day politics would argue that both women in those Comic Covers above are being objectified and the men are perfectly fine. That argument is fucking stupid, and destroys an artists ability to create interesting designs. Which brings me to the end of my rant.
I postulate that the idea that sexiness = objectification is one of the various things that is wrong with western entertainment. Creators either agree with the premise, or are afraid to go against it, and the result is boring, uninspired, character designs that all seem to blend together across all media. Even the east has been infected given the tired flannelled hipster motif Square is going with for Forspoken. I mean can you imagine an American Company making a real AAA Conan game? Too bad Funcom kinda sucks at games cuz they certainly have the balls to stand by the lore (in some aspects at least).
Anyways, lets do this.
All of us are going to have our own opinions on this subject, and in this OP I am just going brush the surface of the topic by laying out some of my own beliefs. I am not a great technical writer, so please excuse what follows. I just want to start the discussion. Feel free to rip me apart.
First off I do not believe Sexualization is bad at all. In fact I love "sexy" well designed characters so long as they make sense. Now I can already hear some of yall starting to grumble, readying up your "Just go watch porn," lazy retorts, so let me head you off for a moment and discuss what I mean by sexy.
Sexy doesn't necessarily mean half naked, or otherwise showing a lot of skin, and like a lot of things sexiness comes in a spectrum that has centerfolds on one side and a mom who found a really good pair of jeans on the other. Sexiness also isn't just perceived externally, it also plays an important role in the average persons internal feelings. For the average woman or man wearing something that makes them feel sexy is empowering and boosts self confidence. What that something is can be completely different depending on your gender though.
The pictures above depict women wearing something sexy, or at least what I define as sexy. Two of those outfits (OG lara croft, and Jennifer Lawrence's dress) are seen as too sexualized for the modern day. There was even a social uproar over JLaw's dress because people were claiming she was forced to wear something so scandalous and degrading. "She is being OBJECTIFIED!!!!" they cried. JLaw later came out in support of the dress and went as far as to say not only did she love it but that she CHOSE to wear it. I am not going to claim to know JLaw's thoughts but if she is telling the truth, and is like other women, then she probably chose to wear the dress because it made her feel good, or powerful, or some positive emotion. Heaven forbid a woman wants to look sexy.
The truth is women wear sexy things all the time. I live in a college town and I am honestly astonished at how little 20 something women cover themselves in public. Its not a bad astonishment mind you, I mean I don't complain, but its definitely eye opening. My wife and I like to play a game at the grocery store called, "Who is trying way too hard", where we point out some of the ridiculous outfits. The winner almost always goes to some chick who showed up in basically her underwear, or some granola girl who is really proud of how her nipples look through her sheer top. I am not exaggerating here either. We have 70 thousand students here in a hot state. 40 thousand of which are women. Shit is insane. Those are the extreme examples though, the average look for a college aged woman seems something like this.
Add in the the running shorts with massive sorority/fraternity shirts and that is the average college aged woman's look in Texas during the summer, fall and spring. If you take a gander and the 30 and 40 something women around town they generally wear more conservative versions of those outfits that are slightly out of date fashion wise (basically more conservative versions of what THEY wore in college).
So, given that, at least in Texas, women are A) Not afraid of their figure, B) Not afraid of showing a lot of bare thigh, C) really really like athletic wear... Why the hell is OG Lara Croft deemed overly sexualized again? I mean she is literally wearing athletic clothing that makes sense both fashionably and for the type of "Athletic" things she does. To be honest NuLara's pants would get really uncomfortable after a while for Tomb Raiding, especially when wet. I honestly wonder the same thing about Nathan Drake. I've done a fair bit of hiking around and holy shit I would not want to do that in those cargo pants, in the heat...Give me athletic shorts any day. That said I don't really have a problem with NuLara, or Nathan Drake's designs. I simple don't understand what is wrong with Old Lara.
Ohh, her boobs you say? Well let me tell you something, my wife isn't fat and she has Fs....women with big boobs exist. I wouldn't exactly say she is prime for tomb raiding though as big boobs are actually a hindrance athletically (its uncomfortable for my wife to jog even with 2 sports bras on), but OG Lara's were never really that big anyways.
So what exactly is wrong with OG Lara? She was badass, had attitude, looked good, was super athletic, fit and hyper smart. Her underworld Character Design is Awesome IMO. What gives? (wink wink)
Now you probably already realized the problem with the images above. JLaw and JLove are both real women and have a say in how they look (I fully realize JLove was probably told to wear that for the movie but I chose that picture because its an example of what a normal college aged woman wore when I was in school, oh memories). Video game characters aren't real and thus their look is entirely designed to be perceived externally (cuz they have no internal lol) by a third party. This problem also arises when movie or TV shows force men and women into outfits that they wouldn't normally wear (still happens). At this point we really need to start talking about objectification but before we do lets talk about men for a bit.
Men and women are different in so many ways, including how sexiness is perceived in both gender. To start with men have a much wider spectrum on what is deemed sexy, and for the most part a sexy man doesn't seem to equate to skin showing or skin tight clothing. Age seems to be nearly meaningless as well. I included a picture of Tom Selleck because my wife (30s) and just about all of her friends think he is sexy as hell. And he isn't the only older actor that gets to them. The average definition of a sexy man is basically, Nathan Drake or, for a real life example, Chris Hemsworth in well fit suit. Do women like seeing Hemsworth's abs? Well yeah, and they would likely show up for a movie with him playing Kratos (even if horribly miscast lol), but that is more the exception than the norm. So why did I add Kratos to the images above? Well mostly to segue into the next topic, The Fallacy of the Male Power Fantasy.
So yeah, lets do this. For years we have been told by a certain population that the idea of a naked barbarian is male power fantasy. The only problem is Men don't feel more powerful when we wear less clothes. In fact its women who gain power both internally and externally when they dress down. A man's sense of sexiness, or power, isn't really tied as much into what we wear, and when it is, it tends to be how "Sharp" or "cool" we look. I mean, cis-guys, when was the last time you wore a low cut v neck and got a boost of good feelings for showing some chest hair? Nathan Drake, or a cool looking man with a gun/sword, is the closest thing to a real male power fantasy.
So why does Kratos look the way he does? Well, he is based on actual historical men mixed with somebody's love of Conan the Barbarian. He is muscular to make it believable that he could fight freaking massive monsters and win. All the other stuff is just to look cool. There is no power fantasy here (other than supernatural strength). He doesn't even top lists of hottest male characters, Nathan Drake, Geralt and...uhh...Link... top those lists. All that said I would consider what Kratos wears as sexy, in the same way that a shirtless Hemsworth is sexy. Speaking of shirtless men, have any of you notice how blatant Netflix and movies have gotten with their "Man takes shirt off or otherwise gets naked" scenes"? The way the camera leers at them is hilarious at times, and some of the scenes don't even makes sense! Have you also noticed how these same scenes don't really happen with women anymore. I mean, they used to back in the 80s and 90s, but now...those cheap ass scenes have gone the way of the dinosaur, and that's a good thing.
Why? Because ladies and gents those scenes serve no purpose other than to objectify. This is something that the frothing blue haired masses have gotten right. The only problem is they are all hypocrites that believe the "Fallacy of the Male Power Fantasy" which basically states "Men can't be objectified because its all a power fantasy to them". So yeah, lets finish by really getting into objectification.
The basic definition of objectification is the action of degrading someone, or a character, to the status of a mere object. In my opinion this definition is too broad and is ripe for abuse. Personally I believe the definition needs to take in account the setting and thematical elements of a work of art. So a better definition would be, objectification is the action of degrading someone, or a character, to the status of a mere object, or an other, relative to a piece of fictions setting and thematical elements. The best way I can explain my thoughts is that if you have a fantasy world were all of the men wear plate armor, and the women wear chainmail bikinis then you are indeed objectifying women because you are treating them as an other (Basically they are following different rules). On the flip side if you have a game were both women and men are scantly clad then there is no objectification because you are not creating an "Other", the rules are the same for everyone.
For example look at Conan's world (images above). Everyone is basically half naked, and when everyone is half naked then nobody is being objectified, nobody is an other. Basically what I am trying to get at is that objectification is bad, but Sexiness doesn't automatically mean objectification as the Authoritarian Left would have you believe. The two can be divorced so long as there is logical consistency in appearances across the genders. Want a modern day example?
Both Cap and BW are wearing skin tight costumes designed to both look cool, and make them look good. There is nothing wrong with this type of "sexiness". Neither is being objectified.
Another way to look at it is that we cannot compare a work of fiction to the real world and claim objectification. The world of fiction can only be compared to itself to find out if objectification is happening. If you have a game with only one human character then there is no way to claim the character is being objectified because there is nothing to compare it with. For this reason, and leering camera angles aside, Eve from Project Eve cannot be considered to be objectified unless we see the other humans in her world. You simply cannot compare the mores of a fictional world with that of the real world. Doing so destroys the point of art.
That said, modern day politics would argue that both women in those Comic Covers above are being objectified and the men are perfectly fine. That argument is fucking stupid, and destroys an artists ability to create interesting designs. Which brings me to the end of my rant.
I postulate that the idea that sexiness = objectification is one of the various things that is wrong with western entertainment. Creators either agree with the premise, or are afraid to go against it, and the result is boring, uninspired, character designs that all seem to blend together across all media. Even the east has been infected given the tired flannelled hipster motif Square is going with for Forspoken. I mean can you imagine an American Company making a real AAA Conan game? Too bad Funcom kinda sucks at games cuz they certainly have the balls to stand by the lore (in some aspects at least).
Anyways, lets do this.
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