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[Bernardougf]

A fair point being made, but unlike AC where they'll do as they please, and probably move regions and time periods for the next game, AFAIK games like Outlaws need at least 2 or 3 games made to recoup first game development costs - and licensing in this case -and risk of people voting with their wallets on Outlaws 2, or the license holder hearing the valid complaint and either forcing Ubi's hand to change things or withdraw the license means an ongoing campaign that Disney hears can bring about change IMO.

I think is more probable that disney finances herself the second game lol ... they already put a chick in it ... we have to know if its gay and lame.. so KK can show her full support!

Wait.. now that I thinking about it
. We shoul probably absolve the devs.. the license contract by lucas film probably had this demands "put a chick in it, and make her lame and gay" ... well .. its a chick.. she is lame... now to the last part

 

[Ozriel]

The not ugly and femine character of outlaws dosent have one characteristic of the model used, the thin jawline was changed to a more square and wide one, the eyebrows were changed from elevated/curve to straight and the thin slightly pronounced chin was made bigger tchicker and with a huge dimple, all of which are predominantly male characteristics.

Thrust me when I say that what they did is deliberately make her face more masculine removing/changing femine traits without making her a full male character. I speak from a strictly professional point of view.

Not you going all #JusticeForHumberleyGonzalez meanwhile the actress herself who was part of the process is quite fine with the whole thing. Down to showing up at Comiccon to promote the game.

 

[BlackTron]

As for Rey, she should have been palpatine daughter. It would be have poetic end to the series.

It boggles my mind that this isn't what happened and the "I'm a Skywalker now" thing isn't fanfiction. It would also have gone a long way helping explain why she seemed so much more naturally gifted than Luke (who was himself very naturally gifted) and help retroactively cool down a lot of criticism for the whole ST. (Before anyone says anything, how much better she seemed would also apply if Rey were male, and would also be easier to swallow if he ended up Palpatine's son. PLEASE don't go there lol).

For fuck's sake.
10 pages of this shit..
Every time there's a new game, the most important thing is if the characters are hot enough.. it's quite corny and weird that grown ups actually care so much about this stuff.

Just go play some hentai games in between the "terror" of having to deal with these "unfuckable" videogame characters.

Yay even more pages of strawmanning.

 

[SimTourist]

 

[Hohenheim]

Oh is so nice for you to decide what is ok to be discussed and what should we play ... I hope you do this for every discussion since you are obviously enlightened

Discuss all you want. I just find it a bit strange that this stuff is such a big deal for some folks.

 

[PaintTinJr]

I think is more probable that disney finances herself the second game lol ... they already put a chick in it ... we have to know if its gay and lame.. so KK can show her full support!

Wait.. now that I thinking about it
. We shoul probably absolve the devs.. the license contract by lucas film probably had this demands "put a chick in it, and make her lame and gay" ... well .. its a chick.. she is lame... now to the last part

I actually think Disney are learning their lesson of representation for its own sake, and are now justifying characters by story requirements. The leering look by a female in an unrobed scene in the Acolyte and the dialogue that followed felt like it was there specifically to show that IMO.

The Andor character mix feels natural and balanced and brilliantly written IMO, but Bix's character could have easily been made passionless and uglified - like this - in recent years, to tilt the balance.

So I could still see Disney pull the license if they don't like the external commentary of Ubi's work from SW fans

 

[SmokedMeat]

They butchered her because they cant stand beautiful women

There must be a shortage of talented artists in the industry. She looks nothing at all like the human model.

 

[AJUMP23]

I think he is right, the developer will gain nothing by saying anything about it.

 

[Woopah]

First and second pictures you posted the faces are pretty accurate and some changes were made to make alignments with the character probably, such as hair and skin color, the third is a scifi computer character but if you check the jawline and overall shape of the head/face is accurate also.

The not ugly and femine character of outlaws dosent have one characteristic of the model used, the thin jawline was changed to a more square and wide one, the eyebrows were changed from elevated/curve to straight and the thin slightly pronounced chin was made bigger tchicker and with a huge dimple, all of which are predominantly male characteristics.

Thrust me when I say that what they did is deliberately make her face more masculine removing/changing femine traits without making her a full male character. I speak from a strictly professional point of view.

So if you dont mind what they are doing, thats fine, but trying to deny it its just factually incorrect.

If its beautiful or not, thats quasi-subjective, in my profession beauty definitely isn't subjective and feminine/masculine traits of beauty are pretty well estabilshed.

I agree that they changed things from the model to the character. What I don't agree with is that these changes count as a political action or that they indicate the developers' attitude about quality.

 

[PaintTinJr]

Not you going all #JusticeForHumberleyGonzalez meanwhile the actress herself who was part of the process is quite fine with the whole thing. Down to showing up at Comiccon to promote the game.

Well Twitter and Comicon are the only times when people will see her, so its in her best interests, because without being told she was the source material for the model, no one would ever think it was her.

 

[mdkirby]

maybe, maybe not. If it was intent to do this, the character is an outlaw, they are a smuggler, they are not a model or anything like this in the concept of the game

So I don't know if i'd go as far as to say its "dumb" as sorta see why they might, she is suppose to just look like some rough and tough outlaw type or something.

So I have nothing against a developer wanting to make a character look sexy or wanting them to look less sexy or something, as its their game, their choice. If it fits the concept, i'm fine. In this situation, I'm not sure why she would need to look sexy and what anyone things that is would always be subjective anyway, you have some on here you think she is "hot"


Depends on what they are going for, so I don't think its dumb or weird.

What example would you mean? Like what show or film did this? cause more context would help, as clearly in the film Monster, the character isn't some hot model or Jamie Foxx in that Spiderman Film, he is suppose to be a nobody, a nerd or something, not some sexy model

vs

or

vs

So...there is a reason I'm saying this.

We need context. We need actual intent vs assumption. Can someone make someone look sex or unsexy for some purpose other then the work itself? absolutely, that is 100% feasible, but before I call it "dumb" or "weird" i need to the know the context, evidence, examples etc that surround that choice first.

Games, just like the film medium need that space to creatively make those choices to convey those characters. So there is a logical reason why someone can be made sexy in a work and a logical reason why they could be made ugly in a work that make sense to the thing they are seeking to convey. As an illustrator, those are not weird or dumb things to me.

The reason I think it is “dumb” is because it’s a matter of marketing. Her base model with new hair would be hot, despite what others may think based on selectively chosen bad screenshots. And you can certainly have more attractive looking overall final package if they wanted to and her still look and feel appropriate as an outlaw, which is why it feels intentional to me.

Like we can deny reality and say these things don’t matter, but sex will always sell, and it’s why you’re gonna always have particularly hot people (male or female) in advertising. And for male players, hormones mean guys just like to see hot women, particularly when the image of beauty is poured into our eyeballs 24/7 on instagram etc.

So yes, they can down play her looks, as they have chosen to do so, but it would be naive to think it won’t affect sales, or demographic appeal

 

[PeteBull]

There must be a shortage of talented artists in the industry. She looks nothing at all like the human model.

They do it delibarety, thats how ps4 lvl hardware so 1,8tf can portrait beautiful female, android but looks more womanly than most current gen female protagonists in game, simply coz they didnt feel need to make her ugly

 

[Ozriel]

There must be a shortage of talented artists in the industry. She looks nothing at all like the human model.

There’s a reason why internet grifters are using that particular still from the trailers. There are many more shots that show the in-game model in much better light, and you’d be hard pressed to call the render ‘ugly’.

Hair’s terrible, for sure.

Well Twitter and Comicon are the only times when people will see her, so its in her best interests, because with being told she was the source material for the model, no one would ever think it was her.

She has it posted on her Instagram, a social media platform where tons of pictures are posted…

Like we can deny reality and say these things don’t matter, but sex will always sell, and it’s why you’re gonna always have particularly hot people (male or female) in advertising. And for male players, hormones mean guys just like to see hot women, particularly when the image of beauty is poured into our eyeballs 24/7 on instagram etc.

So yes, they can down play her looks, as they have chosen to do so, but it would be naive to think it won’t affect sales, or demographic appeal

It’s a Star Wars game. It doesn’t need sex appeal to sell.

 

[PaintTinJr]

....



She has it posted on her Instagram, a social media platform where tons of pictures are posted…

...

Which all requires those that don't know her from Adam to go in search of her. She's is appearing as the lead character that did the motion capture for a AAA SW game, had her face accurately scanned and yet gains nothing from the character model representation in that high profile game, because it looks nothing remotely like her.

How do you not see that is the exact opposite of what she should expect from getting cast, where her performance should make her a recognised actor with all SW fans of all ages that buy the game?

 

[PeteBull]

It’s a Star Wars game. It doesn’t need sex appeal to sell.

Just look how goodlooking are actors in SW movies or even that actor from EA's Jedi Fallen Order and its sequel Jedi survivor, all of them are at the least 8/10 in looks, if not above.
Oh, and any1 remember Leia's bikini scenes?

 

[Humdinger]

Personally I never found Princess Leia attractive. She was a bit too manly and gruff for me. And the bikini scene was just ... no, stop. Even as a horny teen, I didn't find that sexy.

 

[PeteBull]

Personally I never found Princess Leia attractive. She was a bit too manly and gruff for me. And the bikini scene was just ... no, stop. Even as a horny teen, I didn't find that sexy.

All im saying, i wasnt the only one, it even made it to mainstream friends episode

 

[Nickolaidas]

Can we talk about how shitty the enemy A.I. is, at least?

 

[BigBeauford]

So if I'm understanding you correctly, you believe that games have to have a sexy protagonist to be apolitical.

And if your protagonist is not sexy, that means the developer has an agenda that they value more than quality.

Is that your view?

They certainly value the message more than making money yes.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

I always thought Carrie Fisher was good looking. In a very natural good girl way, not a sleazy way.

 

[Woopah]

They certainly value the message more than making money yes.

Based on what? What is "the message"?

 

[BigBeauford]

Based on what? What is "the message"?

Men aren't allowed to derive pleasure from how a protagonist looks.

 

[00_Zer0]

This game has more going wrong with it than the aesthetics of the main character, but don't pretend that a pleasing character design isn't one of the main ingredients to make a game successful. I have rejected games based on crappy graphics, art design, and character design before and I will do it again. Call me shallow, but I rejected Skyward Sword because I thought the character design, and aesthetics missed the mark. Ubisoft's price gauging tactics, game design philosophies, and overall anti consumer activities are what's really pushing me over the edge to say no to this game though.

 

[Woopah]

Men aren't allowed to derive pleasure from how a protagonist looks.

The design of video game protagonists has never just been about players deriving pleasure from it.

Gamers have always been happy spending money on games where they don't get sexual pleasure from the protagonist.

 

[Zannegan]

Ultimately I think it's bad to respond too much to "dissenting" opinions on things like this to be honest. No creative should allow the internet to push them too far from what they wanted to create. This not a free to play online game. Creatives should stick to their approach that they've internally designed and respectfully disagree with these "opposing" views.

That's totally fair. I don't they're even obligated to respond let alone make changes.

Granted, the artistic vision argument isn't really valid when it's corporate art that's been focus-tested, sensitivity read, and CEO mandated half to death before bring assembled by hundreds of workers. But even in that worst case scenario, the creators can and should make the product they want to make, and consumers can buy the end result or not.

Devs should see feedback and even backlash as opportunities to course-correct before the game hits shelves rather than waiting until it's too late. But they aren't obligated to heed opinions (which could easily be wrong) any more than consumers are obligated to buy it. Fans should also be free to voice their displeasure or apprehension just as much as they are their positive views, for the game's sake as well as their own.

The problem with this statement isn't that he's indicating that he won't be responding to the backlash. The problem is that he's disregarding it as "bad faith," not just a bad opinion. Ironically, this itself seems like a bad faith deflection, which, unfortunately, seems to be working.

EDIT: To your point, there's nothing respectful about the way he's chosen to disagree.

 

[mdkirby]

There’s a reason why internet grifters are using that particular still from the trailers. There are many more shots that show the in-game model in much better light, and you’d be hard pressed to call the render ‘ugly’.

Hair’s terrible, for sure.



She has it posted on her Instagram, a social media platform where tons of pictures are posted…


It’s a Star Wars game. It doesn’t need sex appeal to sell.

Star wars always had sex appeal that helped sell it. Guys wanted to screw leia, girls swooned over Han Solo. Both featured heavily in all the marketing. It 100% helped them.

Like it’ll sell, but I don’t think the Star Wars licence alone is the sure fire hit it once was, and this game will have cost a fortune, Ubisoft have also said it’s the biggest marketing campaign they’ve ever done.

I’m not particularly fussed myself (tho I am a little bored of always playing as female, seems to be the kinda games I like to play, narrative adventures, are the genre now most likely to now be female lead characters). I’ll mostly be holding judgement on what people think of the writing and story, and how bad the ubisoft bloat/grind feels. If it’s all good I’ll grab it near release, if it’s mixed I’ll get it when it’s free or heavily discounted, or if I struggle to find something I’m in the mood for.

From a business side tho, with some relatively minor tweaks it would simply be easier to market and sell more in the critical launch window ‍♂, which could be the difference between ubi viewing it as a success or failure.

 

[DonkeyPunchJr]

This game has more going wrong with it than the aesthetics of the main character, but don't pretend that a pleasing character design isn't one of the main ingredients to make a game successful. I have rejected games based on crappy graphics, art design, and character design before and I will do it again. Call me shallow, but I rejected Skyward sword because I thought the character design, and aesthetics missed the mark. Ubisoft's price gauging tactics, and game design philosophies, and overall anti consumer activities are what's really pushing me over the edge to say no to this game though.

FFS practically every hit video game in existence has some iconic main character who looks fucking cool. Nobody wants to play some sci fi/fantasy action blockbuster starring some normal, relatable, average-looking characters.

I can’t believe we are having to re-discover this the hard way in the year 2024.

 

[BigBeauford]

The design of video game protagonists has never just been about players deriving pleasure from it.

Gamers have always been happy spending money on games where they don't get sexual pleasure from the protagonist.

Yes, the design of protagonists used to be about the expression of the artist. Now it's a design by committee to check boxes in hopes of courting an audience they want. The kind of cynical process that is seen in the NFL, where the product is so good that they can put mainstream popstars in halftime shows, or social Justice nonsense on the backs of helmets.

Gamers are too hip to this. They know that "AAA Game of the Month" isn't the only way to get their genre fix in (unlike the NFL), and we are rejecting these studios' attempts to have their cake and eat it.

 

[Zannegan]

The design of video game protagonists has never just been about players deriving pleasure from it.

Gamers have always been happy spending money on games where they don't get sexual pleasure from the protagonist.

Agreed. Making sex or "fuckability" the bar for good character design is silly. Most straight guys would probably rather play as a handsome guy character than an ugly one, all other things being equal. A character can be aesthetically pleasing, or not, without bringing sex into the mix.

With that said, the opposite should also be true. Making a characters unpleasing aesthetically to a large portion of your audience is a choice with obvious consequences if the rest of your game isn't enough to overcome that (cough*CONCORD*cough!) IMO, this discussion shouldn't even be about whether this character should be attractive, or not, but WHY she looks the way she does.

 

[Woopah]

Yes, the design of protagonists used to be about the expression of the artist. Now it's a design by committee to check boxes in hopes of courting an audience they want. The kind of cynical process that is seen in the NFL, where the product is so good that they can put mainstream popstars in halftime shows, or social Justice nonsense on the backs of helmets.

Gamers are too hip to this. They know that "AAA Game of the Month" isn't the only way to get their genre fix in (unlike the NFL), and we are rejecting these studios' attempts to have their cake and eat it.

I would say the whole game looks a bit design by committee. It's a AAA open world game in a famous IP, designed to minimise risk and maximise profit.

 

[PeteBull]

FFS practically every hit video game in existence has some iconic main character who looks fucking cool. Nobody wants to play some sci fi/fantasy action blockbuster starring some normal, relatable, average-looking characters.

I can’t believe we are having to re-discover this the hard way in the year 2024.

Lets check how one of best movies ever, terminator 2, introduces the main character in iconic scene:

Now imagine woke dei fuckers would focus not on quality of the product but on wokeness, and there u go, u got modern terminator movie

And u wonder why today's holywood movies for the most part suck balls

 

[Boglin]

You might find the woman on the left more attractive(lol, whatever floats your boat), but that doesn't mean game developers are purposefully uglifying women in games. For most guys who are normal and not part of some anti-woke horny mob on the internet who've never never seen a female in real life, then they'd typically find the woman on the right just as or probably even more beautiful than the one on the left.

BTW I'm not taking sides and don't care one way or another about any of this but I'm still prepared to write several essay length posts to defend the sudden rise in masculine female characters in media, and about why men who notice the change are delusional. Again though, I don't care and am obviously not taking sides.

 

[BigBeauford]

You might find the woman on the left more attractive(lol, whatever floats your boat), but that doesn't mean game developers are purposefully uglifying women in games. For most guys who are normal and not part of some anti-woke horny mob on the internet who've never never seen a female in real life, then they'd typically find the woman on the right just as or probably even more beautiful than the one on the left.

BTW I'm not taking sides and don't care one way or another about any of this but I'm still prepared to write several essay length posts to defend the sudden rise in masculine female characters in media, and about why men who notice the change are delusional. Again though, I don't care and am obviously not taking sides.

 

[Ozriel]

This game has more going wrong with it than the aesthetics of the main character, but don't pretend that a pleasing character design isn't one of the main ingredients to make a game successful.

Explains why Black Myth Wukong is so high up
There in Steam Wishlists. Main character looks like this:

Star wars always had sex appeal that helped sell it. Guys wanted to screw leia, girls swooned over Han Solo. Both featured heavily in all the marketing. It 100% helped them.

Ironically, Daisy Ridley from the newest Star Wars movies doesn’t seem to have the super tapered chin people here have been yammering about

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Lets check how one of best movies ever, terminator 2, introduces the main character in iconic scene:

Now imagine woke dei fuckers would focus not on quality of the product but on wokeness, and there u go, u got modern terminator movie

And u wonder why today's holywood movies for the most part suck balls

It'll more years of tough slogging it with DEI media, but let em. It'll slowly fizzle out.

But if crappy sales, profits and job losses doesn't faze them nothing will. Comes down to how bottomless their pockets are. But their isnt unlimited money.

As for awesome intros. How often do you get stuff like this in modern day? And thats despite the low budget special effects the movie had with some shitty cgi.

 

[Bernardougf]

I agree that they changed things from the model to the character. What I don't agree with is that these changes count as a political action or that they indicate the developers' attitude about quality.

I think that when people say political, they are talking mostly about the political spectrum (left) usually associated with woke/dei practices... not something literally political in its meaning ... i also dont like the term political, in this case I think Ideology its more accurate

 

[Bernardougf]

I always thought Carrie Fisher was good looking. In a very natural good girl way, not a sleazy way.

Yes she was.. the patterns of beauty have changed since then but she was naturally very beautiful for that time...

 

[Bernardougf]

I actually think Disney are learning their lesson of representation for its own sake, and are now justifying characters by story requirements. The leering look by a female in an unrobed scene in the Acolyte and the dialogue that followed felt like it was there specifically to show that IMO.

The Andor character mix feels natural and balanced and brilliantly written IMO, but Bix's character could have easily been made passionless and uglified - like this - in recent years, to tilt the balance.

So I could still see Disney pull the license if they don't like the external commentary of Ubi's work from SW fans

I saw Endor and enjoy it very much.. but I gave up on disney star wars until KK is gone and whoever takes over shows signs of changing things, beginning with firing the whole ridiculous feminist "story group". Until then we have Marvel to hope for, some insiders are claiming Feige has admitted his mistakes with phase 4 and will heavily correct course through the new avengers movie, its time to hope I guess.

 

[Bernardougf]

Discuss all you want. I just find it a bit strange that this stuff is such a big deal for some folks.

Well probably that is something that you find really important that most of us dont care.. dosent make less important to you.. thats how opinions and perceptions work. If it dosent botter your than thats fine. But the complaints of this game in this case has merits, the importance of it will be subjective and individual.

 

[PeteBull]

I saw Endor and enjoy it very much.. but I gave up on disney star wars until KK is gone and whoever takes over shows signs of changing things, beginning with firing the whole ridiculous feminist "story group". Until then we have Marvel to hope for, some insiders are claiming Feige has admitted his mistakes with phase 4 and will heavily correct course through the new avengers movie, its time to hope I guess.

Same, u would think Endor w/o jedi as protagonist would suck, but it actually was pretty well written and shot tv series/season, looking forward to season 2.

 

[Humdinger]

All im saying, i wasnt the only one, it even made it to mainstream friends episode

lol. Hey, different strokes. (wrong phrase) I don't suppose it helps that I can't get the mature version of Carry Fisher out of my head.

 

[Hohenheim]

Well probably that is something that you find really important that most of us dont care.. dosent make less important to you.. thats how opinions and perceptions work. If it dosent botter your than thats fine. But the complaints of this game in this case has merits, the importance of it will be subjective and individual.

Thanks for the lecture, bro.

But let's be real.. most folks on here who calls that Star Wars chick "unfuckable" would have tapped that ass in a hearbeat if given the opportunity.

 

[SlimySnake]

Character model is fine. The problem is that it doesnt look great at all times due to poor lighting. Every game needs hero lighting like they use in Horizon. Aloy's character model looks amazing at all times despite them doing their best to make her a bit puffy. Capcom's RE games have the same issue. It was fixed by the path tracing mod. Jill, Leon and Ashley all look great now at all times.

 

[Bernardougf]

Thanks for the lecture, bro.

But let's be real.. most folks on here who calls that Star Wars chick "unfuckable" would have tapped that ass in a hearbeat if given the opportunity.

And most people saying that her looks dosent matter would prefer to play and fap to a beautiful woman in a heartbeat also... hypocrisy comes from both sides rest assured.

 

[Gaiff]

Every game needs hero lighting like they use in Horizon.

Nah, thanks.

 

[Bernardougf]

Character model is fine. The problem is that it doesnt look great at all times due to poor lighting. Every game needs hero lighting like they use in Horizon. Aloy's character model looks amazing at all times despite them doing their best to make her a bit puffy. Capcom's RE games have the same issue. It was fixed by the path tracing mod. Jill, Leon and Ashley all look great now at all times.

I agree with the lighting.. hard pass on the chubby face strong jaw Aloy ... it gave us good memes material though

 

[Zannegan]

I agree with the lighting.. hard pass on the chubby face strong jaw Aloy ... it gave us good memes material though

The real games were the memes we made along the way...

 

[mckmas8808]

I agree with the lighting.. hard pass on the chubby face strong jaw Aloy ... it gave us good memes material though

You honestly think Aloy has a chubby face in those pictures?

 

[Bernardougf]

You honestly think Aloy has a chubby face in those pictures?

Oh definitely... but her model changes from the first game were already discussed and mocked/defended to death ... personally I dont care, her looks witch aside from funny memes was fine was the least of this games problems, her personality though, sheeeshh.

 

[PeteBull]

You honestly think Aloy has a chubby face in those pictures?

who doesnt lool? just compare her to actress from first game

Its like alloy gained 20 pounds, all of it on her face between acress and how aloy looks in the sequel
Those memes were made for a reason

I even remember one with DF's richard leadbetter that was shown i think in one of DF weekly podcasts by i think one of their coworkers, cant find it anymore but its out there in DF weekly podcasts vids somewhere