Support NeoGAF

[Thick Thighs Save Lives]

Koei Tecmo founder and CEO Yoichi Erikawa, also known by his game creator pseudonym Kou Shibusawa, recently reminisced about the development of Nioh in an interview with Denfaminicogamer. The acclaimed action RPG came out in 2017, but famously took 12 years to launch after its initial announcement, going through a drawn out and sporadic development process. Erikawa gives some insight into the main cause of this – which happens to be himself.

Talking to Denfaminicogamer, Erikawa says that to this day, he continues to do the final check of games coming out of Koei Tecmo, and the main thing he looks for is whether a game delivers “a new form of entertainment value” or not. When he doesn’t find what he’s looking for, he asks for things to be remade. Erikawa calls Nioh a “classic example” of this tendency of his. He was the creator of the Nioh IP and general producer of the title, and he had the game scrapped and remade a whopping three times until it met his vision.

“Development took 12 years. If it were someone working under me doing this, they would have been fired,” Erikawa jokes, before adding that Nioh was “a game I pursued self-indulgently.”

At the same time, he doesn’t seem to regret it, commenting, “Even so, after remaking it three times, we put out a good game. Nioh was created when Koei and Tecmo merged, and it combined the strengths of both companies into something entertaining. As you know, Koei’s forte was historical games, while Tecmo excelled at action games.”

For extra context, Nioh’s development first started in 2004, and at this point, it was still being handled only by Koei staff, as the merger with Tecmo came in 2008. The merger coincided with Nioh’s first (and most JRPG-like) build being scrapped and development being reassigned to Dynasty Warriors series developer Omega Force. The second build, headed by Omega Force, ultimately ended up being scrapped as well, after which Tecmo’s Team Ninja (developer of Ninja Gaiden and Dead or Alive) took over most aspects of development, steering the game into heavier action.

Back in 2016, Nioh’s creative director Fumihiko Yasuda told Eurogamer that earlier versions of Nioh didn’t live up to Erikawa’s vision, and while he did let Team Ninja do their thing after they took over, he would constantly playtest the game himself, so they could “feel his watchful eyes” on them.

As a result, however, Nioh was a hit, especially among global audiences. Nioh and its sequel sold nearly 8 million copies, almost 90% of which came from the West.

Nioh’s producer says he would have been fired if he weren’t his own boss as he looks back on the game’s 12-year-long development period - AUTOMATON WEST

Koei Tecmo CEO and general producer of Nioh talks about the game's "self-indulgent" development process that took 12 years.

automaton-media.com

 

[mèx]

A founder and CEO, acting as a game producer, constantly playtesting your games? Based.

12 years to make a game is something else though. At least giving Nioh to Team Ninja was the right choice, it's one of the best action games out there.

 

[The Shepard]

Hopefully we don't have to wait so long for Nioh 3. Nioh is the best none from software souls game.

 

[clarky]

Great game. Still have yet to play through 2 in entirety.

 

[Giallo Corsa]

Sorry gents but 12 years for what amounts to a souls-clone ?
I still remember the 1st trailer they showed for the PS3, let's be honest, they knew fuck and all what to do with this game, couple that with the fact that - after all those years - and "completely coincidentally" it turned out to be just another souls-like after the Souls series had already taken off...yeah.

I've finished the 1st Nioh ('bout 75 hours of playtime) but I bailed on Nioh 2 not even mid-way, it was just too repetitive and that Diablo-like loot-athon aspect never had a place in a game like this IMO.

To think that Ninja Gaiden died for this...then again, everyone and their grandmas love souls-likes nowadays so I'm a not surprised.

For me, they're the definition of mediocre

 

[Punished Miku]

Sorry gents but 12 years for what amounts to a souls-clone ?
I still remember the 1st trailer they showed for the PS3, let's be honest, they knew fuck and all what to do with this game, couple that with the fact that - after all those years - and "completely coincidentally" it turned out to be just another souls-like after the Souls series had already taken off...yeah.

I've finished the 1st Nioh ('bout 75 hours of playtime) but I bailed on Nioh 2 not even mid-way, it was just too repetitive and that Diablo-like loot-athon aspect never had a place in a game like this IMO.

To think that Ninja Gaiden died for this...then again, everyone and their grandmas love souls-likes nowadays so I'm a not surprised.

For me, they're the definition of mediocre

It's barely a souls clone. It's pretty much the pinnacle of samurai-style combat with a whole new multi-stance system, multiple weapons, weapon drawing / sheathing stance, and the whole ki-pulse system. Enemy AI is also good. Tons of fantastic bosses as well. Complex gear and RPG elements. Very long end game / new game+ content to grind also. And it's all online co-op.

But yeah, maybe the guy should review prototypes and see if it offers something new before people spend 4 years on it.

 

[kevboard]

Sorry gents but 12 years for what amounts to a souls-clone ?
I still remember the 1st trailer they showed for the PS3, let's be honest, they knew fuck and all what to do with this game, couple that with the fact that - after all those years - and "completely coincidentally" it turned out to be just another souls-like after the Souls series had already taken off...yeah.

I've finished the 1st Nioh ('bout 75 hours of playtime) but I bailed on Nioh 2 not even mid-way, it was just too repetitive and that Diablo-like loot-athon aspect never had a place in a game like this IMO.

To think that Ninja Gaiden died for this...then again, everyone and their grandmas love souls-likes nowadays so I'm a not surprised.

For me, they're the definition of mediocre

Ninja Gaiden died because Ninja Gaiden 3 was a hot steamy pile of shit.
they killed the IP. abandoning a sinking ship makes sense.

Ni-Oh is great. the best Souls-like that isn't made by Fromsoft.

 

[tusharngf]

12yrs for that game? i got around 190 hours into it. Everything is good only issue is MAPs are badly designed.

 

[Clear]

Sorry gents but 12 years for what amounts to a souls-clone ?

Nioh2 is a better action game than any game with Souls in its title.

 

[Giallo Corsa]

Nioh2 is a better action game than any game with Souls in its title.

Action,yes, as a whole game though...definitely not with its mediocre stage layout and even worse shortcuts, mediocre, 1-gen behind graphics, padded gameplay, OCD-inducing loot that has no place in an action RPG (unless it's Diablo) and over convoluted gameplay systems.

Again, I'm expressing my personal opinion obviously, I love action games and action RPGs but the Nioh games haven't gelled with me, there's "something" missing about them.

Cheers

PS : And yes, i do agree that NG died because NG3 was bad, it's just that I expected more from Team Ninja than a souls-like ('cause let's not kid ourselves, It's still a souls-like)

 

[MMaRsu]

Ninja Gaiden died because Ninja Gaiden 3 was a hot steamy pile of shit.
they killed the IP. abandoning a sinking ship makes sense.

Ni-Oh is great. the best Souls-like that isn't made by Fromsoft.

One horrible entry does not make a sinking ship.

See DMC2

 

[Duellist]

They better be working on Nioh 3

 

[MMaRsu]

Some gameplay from my playing Nioh back on the PS4.

God I loved the game

 

[Clear]

Action,yes, as a whole game though...definitely not with its mediocre stage layout and even worse shortcuts, mediocre, 1-gen behind graphics, padded gameplay, OCD-inducing loot that has no place in an action RPG (unless it's Diablo) and over convoluted gameplay systems.

Again, I'm expressing my personal opinion obviously, I love action games and action RPGs but the Nioh games haven't gelled with me, there's "something" missing about them.

Cheers

PS : And yes, i do agree that NG died because NG3 was bad, it's just that I expected more from Team Ninja than a souls-like ('cause let's not kid ourselves, It's still a souls-like)

You just proved my point about why claiming that Nioh 2 is Souls-like is fundamentally wrong.

There are a bunch of superficial similarities, but even more aspects that are greatly different. Nioh isn't about atmosphere and world-design, its about fighting progressively tougher human and supernatural foes using a deep toolbox of character and equipment systems. There is something of a story, but its mainly just a lampshade for replayable area and arena battles.

The bottom line is that you can point out deficiencies if you look at it as a Souls' like, but to do that you have to ignore all the things it does that no Souls' game does, an how different the flow of play is over the long haul. And long haul is no exaggeration when there's literally hundreds of hours of content in there if you're willing to go the distance through to Abyss-level difficulty.

 

[64bitmodels]

Ninja Gaiden died because Ninja Gaiden 3 was a hot steamy pile of shit.

"oh no, we made one bad game time to sink the franchise"

If Nintendo abided by that mentality Mario would've ended with Lost Levels.

 

[TerribleAtThisGame]

They could've spent maybe just one of those 144 months on level design. Couldn't believe Nioh 2 doubled down on the mindnumbingly repetitive, boring and primitive level design. The combat is great and fun as hell but encounter and level design drags those games down hard for me.

 

[The Cockatrice]

wasnt a fan of Nioh but Nioh 2 was awesome. Everything after was bad. Just make Nioh 3.

 

[kevboard]

"oh no, we made one bad game time to sink the franchise"

If Nintendo abided by that mentality Mario would've ended with Lost Levels.

Lost Levels was originally not released globally, only in one market. the big markets got a good game

and exactly for that reason. because Nintendo of America knew it could kill the Mario brand if they released that trash as Mario 2 in the west

 

[mèx]

The meat of the game, the combat, plays nothing like a Souls game. It's more an action game if anything else.

The fact that it borrows some elements from Souls titles does not mean it's a Souls-like...

 

[Clear]

They could've spent maybe just one of those 144 months on level design. Couldn't believe Nioh 2 doubled down on the mindnumbingly repetitive, boring and primitive level design. The combat is great and fun as hell but encounter and level design drags those games down hard for me.

What exactly is the problem with the level design?

Not saying this to be obtuse, but what function does it need to perform that it fails to do? I mean specifically the way the levels are built is for them to be reusable in various configurations and difficulties.

Its not trying to create a dense inter-connected world, they are just traditional video-game levels! Exploration isn't really a consideration because the goal is inevitably "reach the end, kill the boss". Sure there are hidden Kodama's to find and shortcuts to make, but they aren't usually made that hard to find because they are once-and-done mechanics, and again I stress the entire game design is built around revisiting the areas at different difficulties with different enemy placements.

The RPG part is a pure loot grind with an extensive crafting, gear-tier, and skilling system so it doesn't need to have side-quests or cinematics baked into the levels. The story and cut-scenes are all very deliberately kept separate so they don't get in the way of the action.

 

[coachmcguirk91]

It's barely a souls clone. It's pretty much the pinnacle of samurai-style combat with a whole new multi-stance system, multiple weapons, weapon drawing / sheathing stance, and the whole ki-pulse system. Enemy AI is also good. Tons of fantastic bosses as well. Complex gear and RPG elements. Very long end game / new game+ content to grind also. And it's all online co-op.

But yeah, maybe the guy should review prototypes and see if it offers something new before people spend 4 years on it.

I really wish the Nioh series was popular enough to be a Diablo or Destiny level gaas game. Where every 6 months Team Ninja would release an expansion to play through. The variety in gameplay would make it perfectly suitable for it

Instead, Team Ninja is stuck developing multiple low budget games like Wo-Long and Strangers of Paradise, while also developing a bigger budget game in Rise of the Ronin. In the end, they all seemed incredibly rushed and unpolished

And I say this as a massive fan of ROTR. It could have been an all time game if it was developed on a decent game engine and was given the time and resources that ended up on other projects

 

[Schmendrick]

I absolutely loved the NiOh games, buuut 12 years for NiOh 1?
Does that mean I´ll have to weait a decade or longer for NiOh 3?


Please no more Wolong crap....

 

[kevboard]

The meat of the game, the combat, plays nothing like a Souls game. It's more an action game if anything else.

The fact that it borrows some elements from Souls titles does not mean it's a Souls-like...

the only logical definition of a souls-like is:
Action RPG with set respawn/rest points, currency loss upon death and the ability to regain the lost currency.
any other definition of souls-like would instantly fall apart.

ergo: Ni-Oh is a souls-like

 

[mayham2199]

It's barely a souls clone. It's pretty much the pinnacle of samurai-style combat with a whole new multi-stance system, multiple weapons, weapon drawing / sheathing stance, and the whole ki-pulse system. Enemy AI is also good. Tons of fantastic bosses as well. Complex gear and RPG elements. Very long end game / new game+ content to grind also. And it's all online co-op.

But yeah, maybe the guy should review prototypes and see if it offers something new before people spend 4 years on it.

I think Sekiro is the pinnacle but yes Nioh is incredible and much more than just a souls clone.

 

[SlimySnake]

Souls game wish they had an impeccable combat system like Nioh. If anything Nioh exposed FromSoft's combat mechanics as dated, basic and simple. Somethign they tried fixing with Elden Ring by adding a lot more moves and abilties but still couldnt even come close to Nioh and Nioh 2.

The only problem with Nioh games is that they require too much time to click. You need to be playing for at least 30 hours before builds start to click. And before that the game can be a slog with incredibly difficult boss fights.

 

[TheTurboFD]

Hopefully we don't have to wait so long for Nioh 3. Nioh is the best none from software souls game.

Agree on this, I'd add The Surge 2 and Lies of P are up there too.

 

[TerribleAtThisGame]

What exactly is the problem with the level design?

Not saying this to be obtuse, but what function does it need to perform that it fails to do? I mean specifically the way the levels are built is for them to be reusable in various configurations and difficulties.

Its not trying to create a dense inter-connected world, they are just traditional video-game levels! Exploration isn't really a consideration because the goal is inevitably "reach the end, kill the boss". Sure there are hidden Kodama's to find and shortcuts to make, but they aren't usually made that hard to find because they are once-and-done mechanics, and again I stress the entire game design is built around revisiting the areas at different difficulties with different enemy placements.

The RPG part is a pure loot grind with an extensive crafting, gear-tier, and skilling system so it doesn't need to have side-quests or cinematics baked into the levels. The story and cut-scenes are all very deliberately kept separate so they don't get in the way of the action.

I'm taking a shit at work so can't write a thesis. I thpught the first full level they used as a demo was great. It steadily declined into a repetitive slog of boredom for me after. The function was to not bore me but encounter design is worse. To me, great mechanics only really remain fun for me if they find new ways to frame them over the course of a long game.

 

[cireza]

Team Ninja know how to make action games. They are among the best out there.

 

[Zacfoldor]

Both games are amazing but Nioh 2 still one of my best gaming memories. That hard ass beginning will forever be in my heart. I think Nioh 2 is Team Ninja's best work.

 

[SHA]

Bad bosses look for shortcuts even if they don't exist.

 

[cinnamonandgravy]

something about the vibe of nioh is so good

12 years is crazy but it worked

 

[NeverYouMind]

I have a certain disconnect from Nioh games unlike Ninja Gaiden games. The whole stamina and Ki Pulse system kind of ruins them. I tend to use ninja tools, magic, and ranged attacks to avoid dealing with it. Even in Wu Long I love to jump into melee.

 

[Pidull]

Sorry gents but 12 years for what amounts to a souls-clone ?
I still remember the 1st trailer they showed for the PS3, let's be honest, they knew fuck and all what to do with this game, couple that with the fact that - after all those years - and "completely coincidentally" it turned out to be just another souls-like after the Souls series had already taken off...yeah.

I've finished the 1st Nioh ('bout 75 hours of playtime) but I bailed on Nioh 2 not even mid-way, it was just too repetitive and that Diablo-like loot-athon aspect never had a place in a game like this IMO.

To think that Ninja Gaiden died for this...then again, everyone and their grandmas love souls-likes nowadays so I'm a not surprised.

For me, they're the definition of mediocre

And just like that, I now yearn for a Ninja Gaiden souls-like reboot.

Bring back Jacquio and all that, rework the story so that one of the idols from the NES game has the power to bring Ryu back with a shade version of himself now out there.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Nioh2 is a better action game than any game with Souls in its title.

Nioh 2. The Souls game that was actually good.

 

[LectureMaster]

Nioh 2 has the best action system ever. I personally love Nioh 1 better for its historical setting and level designs.