Support NeoGAF

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

This is the first thread I've made in the 2 years I've been on Gaf because I'm so upset after learning that Nintendo has removed any and all difficulty in another game, Super Mario RPG. This is a game that I missed out on playing back in the day, so I was really looking forward to this "lovingly and faithfully created remake", only to read GameSpots review where the "con" of the game is "unbalanced new gameplay mechanics that remove ANY challenge".

I can't express how much of a shot to the gut this is to hear because this was a game known for having some difficulty with some of its encounters! Recently, I was really excited about Mario Wonder, but as I've been playing I've been extremely bummed about what "could have been" had Nintendo not nerfed just about every mechanic that used to make the average 2d Mario challenging.

Doesn't Nintendo have Kirby, Yoshi, Pokémon, and many other kid friendly, EASY games? That had to neuter Mario too? Seriously if you don't believe me just play Mario U Deluxe HD on Switch then play Wonder. The same thing happening to Mario RPG was what I was afraid of and here it is.

An argument can be made that Nintendo is making every one of their franchises incredibly easy now compared to how the average Nintendo game was in the past. Zelda might present a bit of challenge here and there but that's it.

A game having some sense of challenge is necessary to be a great game that has any lasting replay value. Nintendo absolutely used to understand this with games like Super Mario World, most Zelda's, Metroid etc. Part of the magic of Nintendo games was they were accessible while still offering a challenge for most players.

This sucks.

 

[DonkeyPunchJr]

They seriously made it even easier? Game was already like baby’s first JRPG as it is.

 

[Power Pro]

Isn't it just an easy mode that you can ignore if you want in Super Mario RPG? I thought the standard difficulty was still basically the same as the original. If that's the case, then Super Mario RPG might not be one to worry about.

With that being said, I also agree with you to a point. Nothing about Zelda Tears of the Kingdom was exceptionally difficult to me, just time consuming. Super Mario Bros Wonder I had high hopes for, because they finally got out of the NEW series style, but I ended up finding it easier than the last NEW smb game. People kept on comparing it to Super Mario World, and I couldn't disagree more. Even the most challenging stages in Wonder were just a minor inconvenience. No real challenge in that game at all.

I've been asking myself if it's just me getting older and more experienced with games that maybe I'm just better at them than I was when I was younger...but I don't think that's true. I think in some ways I'm actually worse at games than when I was a kid. I still have not beaten the original SMB again since I was a kid, so if anything I was better at one time.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

LOL go play a Souls game. Nintendo is for everybody, not just "hardcore" gamers

 

[rabbity-thing]

LOL go play a Souls game. Nintendo is for everybody, not just "hardcore" gamers

Not to state the obvious, but that's what difficulty settings are for. If it's for everyone and not just hardcore gamers, that "everyone" should stil include, I'd imagine, hardcore gamers.

 

[Holammer]

A player not completing the game is considered a failure for Nintendo. Masahiro Sakurai even discusses the topic in one of this YT videos.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

I havent owned a Nintendo system since NES and SNES.

All I know is every first party game I played back then were easy as hell, with exception Zelda 2: Link was pretty hard playing while trying to kill every enemy (as opposed to YTers who will jump and avoid enemies). And some levels in Cobra Triangle were a pain. And this easiness was playing these games as a teenager.

Are modern Nintendo games super easy too?

 

[Loomy]

Nintendo knows who their audience for Mario is.

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

They seriously made it even easier? Game was already like baby’s first JRPG as it is.

Yes, according to GameSpot the new mechanics added are extremely unbalanced and now there's no difficulty whatsoever.

It really kills me to see this. Mario Wonder could've been the best 2d Mario since SMW but it's a cakewalk. They don't even give you challenging Stars to find anymore hidden in levels. They still hide 3 stars/coins in every level. Let's say you get one and die in the process ...when you replay the level you will still have the item. Why do this?

There are many examples like the one above that were changed in Wonder to be extremely easy, such as removing timers in challenge rooms etc

 

[Victor Omega]

Do you have a link to that video? That is so likely to believe since so many ppl play GaaS and have little to no time to want to finish a game now. Wild to me but the current reality.

 

[bender]

The Final Final Test in Mario Wonder is a mother fucker.

 

[ShadyAcshuns]

So.. modern gaming? Aside from a few companies, this has become a thing.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

One of the main issues with Tears of the Kingdom. Too easy.

 

[ShadyAcshuns]

Not to state the obvious, but that's what difficulty settings are for. If it's for everyone and not just hardcore gamers, that "everyone" should stil include, I'd imagine, hardcore gamers.

Well... if FS for instance ONLY caters to one group in one way, you can expect others to do the exact opposite. Truth is, everyone should cater to... everyone these days. There's no excuse not to really.

 

[vodka-bull]

Is Sony any better? I remember people complaining about Atreus not shutting his damn mouth and spoiling all the puzzles solutions…

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

Isn't it just an easy mode that you can ignore if you want in Super Mario RPG? I thought the standard difficulty was still basically the same as the original. If that's the case, then Super Mario RPG might not be one to worry about.

With that being said, I also agree with you to a point. Nothing about Zelda Tears of the Kingdom was exceptionally difficult to me, just time consuming. Super Mario Bros Wonder I had high hopes for, because they finally got out of the NEW series style, but I ended up finding it easier than the last NEW smb game. People kept on comparing it to Super Mario World, and I couldn't disagree more. Even the most challenging stages in Wonder were just a minor inconvenience. No real challenge in that game at all.

I've been asking myself if it's just me getting older and more experienced with games that maybe I'm just better at them than I was when I was younger...but I don't think that's true. I think in some ways I'm actually worse at games than when I was a kid. I still have not beaten the original SMB again since I was a kid, so if anything I was better at one time.

No, you're 100% right ...it's not that we've just gotten better at games, Nintendo games like Mario used to be much more difficult, yet still able to be completed by kids who stuck with it. These new games are nerfed exponentially. It's a farce to see the media trumping it up so much while ignoring an issue as big as this.

It's very strange times we're in with this "accessibility" craze having reached a peak. This started a long time ago but it keeps getting worse. Games should have accessibility "features", that doesn't mean the game should be SO accessible as to remove such a vital aspect to the typical gamer..that of challenge.

It's funny because these games review and sell very well but if you look at people's comments there are MANY people who are just as disappointed by Mario Wonders easiness.

 

[DeepSpace5D]

Is it something that can be toggled off in menu settings, or is it inherent in the design of the game?

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

Is Sony any better? I remember people complaining about Atreus not shutting his damn mouth and spoiling all the puzzles solutions…

Sony's getting worse too. I can't believe how Ragnarok they tell you the solution to every puzzle. They signpost or just tell you where we're supposed to GO in this game too. What ever happened to the maxim that a game should respect the players intelligence?

 

[lh032]

majority of their userbase are either kids or adults that prefer easy games.

 

[Lokaum D+]

Thats my feelings while playig SMO, where is the challenge? No difficult puzzle to solve, no difficult jump to make, no difficult boss to handle, there is nothing in Odyssei that ll challenge the player abilities.

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

Is it something that can be toggled off in menu settings, or is it inherent in the design of the game?

As far as I know it's inherent in the game just like GoW Ragnaroks "npc giving players the solution" was built into the game.

This taking the idea of accessibility too far imo.

 

[Ozzie666]

Obersation

Casual gamers > Hard core games, no matter what NeoGaf or similar sites seem to indicate. The majority of people with cash to game, also have limited time and families. Nintendo know's.

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

majority of their userbase are either kids or adults that prefer easy games.

Same as in the 90's though when their games used to be challenging and have an actual curve for players. I grew up during the 90's and remember it well. As kids we could still complete these game. They don't need to remove it entirely like they do today!

 

[Sojiro]

Yes, according to GameSpot the new mechanics added are extremely unbalanced and now there's no difficulty whatsoever.

It really kills me to see this. Mario Wonder could've been the best 2d Mario since SMW but it's a cakewalk. They don't even give you challenging Stars to find anymore hidden in levels. They still hide 3 stars/coins in every level. Let's say you get one and die in the process ...when you replay the level you will still have the item. Why do this?

There are many examples like the one above that were changed in Wonder to be extremely easy, such as removing timers in challenge rooms etc

That comparison kind of makes me smile, since SMW is a pretty damn easy game too IMO, and why I prefer SMB3 over it. Like SMW, Wonder has most of its challenge behind the hidden levels and star/special world, with a few tougher levels sprinkled into the main game mostly toward the end. I still think Wonder is a fantastic game and would put it up there with world as tie for 2nd on 2D Mario's.

For Mario RPG, after seeing how the timing hits multiple enemies from the initial trailer, I was worried it would make regular encounters trivial, and unfortunately that may be the case. I doubt their goal was to make the game "easier" but to try and streamline/quicken regular encounters, but it still sucks it comes at the expense of regular encounters providing any threat. I had planned to pick this up after finishing Star Ocean and still probably plan to, but I will definitely be keeping an eye out to what people say once they get their hands on it.

 

[ShadyAcshuns]

Is Sony any better? I remember people complaining about Atreus not shutting his damn mouth and spoiling all the puzzles solutions…

Aloy as well.

 

[ShadyAcshuns]

It's funny because these games review and sell very well but if you look at people's comments there are MANY people who are just as disappointed by Mario Wonders easiness.

I just beat the game today, and yeah it was easier than previous 2D Mario games but I really didn't mind. I know that if I want a challenge I can go back and try to get every seed and purple coin etc. The older I get, the easier I like my games. I guess Ninty knows their original fans are old-timers like me lol.

 

[Serge85]

Final level of Mario Wonder is really really really hard, so is something.

Mario Rpg has like uber bosses after you beat the game I think.

 

[PonyStation4]

LOL go play a Souls game. Nintendo is for everybody, not just "hardcore" gamers

Games for everybody have settings like Easy, Normal and Hard.

This is just lazy game development, leading to worse gameplay.

 

[AJUMP23]

SmW HAS SOME CHALLENGING LEVELS.

 

[Futaleufu]

Not particularly Nintendo, but I've read people say "I've already paid for the game, I deserve to play it to completion". This is why now many games have "tourist/story" difficulty levels

 

[Shifty1897]

There never was any challenge in the original Mario RPG. Game was piss easy.

 

[ShadyAcshuns]

Games for everybody have settings like Easy, Normal and Hard.

This is just lazy game development, leading to worse gameplay.

The game is brilliant and anything but lazy. You can choose to not take any mushrooms and play the whole game as small Mario where one hit equal death. You can not touch the midway flag poll, and you can not use any badges, and some of the levels would be considered quite difficult for some players.

It's a goty contender for a reason. Have you even played it?

 

[Deft Beck]

Sony's getting worse too. I can't believe how Ragnarok they tell you the solution to every puzzle. They signpost or just tell you where we're supposed to GO in this game too. What ever happened to the maxim that a game should respect the players intelligence?

Games are getting more and more expensive. They want to make sure as many people as possible can complete the game on the default difficulty. Still, you do get people who don't play these sorts of games who get stuck and might quit. This sort of thing makes sure that the majority of players can get through the non-combat playable segments.

 

[Rran]

There's some truth here but it's exaggerated. As someone who grew up with the series, I find Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom to be way harder than any Zelda that isn't the first two games. But I'm going between Mario Wonder and DKC2 right now, and the SNES classic is way more challenging. I had a similar problem with Pikmin 4, but at least that eventually got tough near the end.

 

[ADiTAR]

If you want hardcore challenge in platforming you have Celeste.

I found Mario Wonder 5 star levels mostly challenging, but I also enjoyed the experience. While Celeste didn't grab me.

Sometimes it's just fun to play the game.

 

[ManaByte]

Even the most challenging stages in Wonder were just a minor inconvenience. No real challenge in that game at all.

 

[Gameplay Gods Bless]

A player not completing the game is considered a failure for Nintendo. Masahiro Sakurai even discusses the topic in one of this YT videos.

Then they fail big time because the vast majority of consumers don't finish their games.

 

[ADiTAR]

Then they fail big time because the vast majority of consumers don't finish their games.

There's data on that?

 

[Sojiro]

Climb to the beat was one I spent a good amount of lives on too, probably the second toughest level after that one.

 

[Sorcerer]

There was no real challenge in Super Mario RPG. Beautiful game, the writing was funny and awesome, that's enough to carry the game.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Climb to the beat was one I spent a good amount of lives on too, probably the second toughest level after that one.

That one took me around 25-30 lives to beat. I kinda wish I had kept count more exactly but oh well. I felt really good after clearing that one, like I still had it or something LMAO

 

[PonyStation4]

The game is brilliant and anything but lazy. You can choose to not take any mushrooms and play the whole game as small Mario where one hit equal death. You can not touch the midway flag poll, and you can not use any badges, and some of the levels would be considered quite difficult for some players.

It's a goty contender for a reason. Have you even played it?

That's like saying Pokemon is a difficult and well designed game because you can choose not to fight trainers and level up. Not using game mechanics or items can be applied to most games

 

[Danjin44]

Not to state the obvious, but that's what difficulty settings are for. If it's for everyone and not just hardcore gamers, that "everyone" should stil include, I'd imagine, hardcore gamers.

Same way FROM choose not put difficulty option on their games, they can also do the same. We have verity of games these days, you want difficulty game then play game like Sekiro. At end of the day are free to choose how they want design their games, you either like it or dont.

 

[Gameplay Gods Bless]

There's data on that?

Check out achievement statistics going back to the 360 till now on every platform.

 

[Danjin44]

Funny thing about people calling Mario RPG "easy" is that people call games like Octopath and Shin Megami Tensei V "grindy", even tho you never need to grind in those games, I never need, not even once.

 

[blacktout]

If you want hardcore challenge in platforming you have Celeste.

I found Mario Wonder 5 star levels mostly challenging, but I also enjoyed the experience. While Celeste didn't grab me.

Sometimes it's just fun to play the game.

I totally agree. I have nothing against difficult games (both Dark Souls and Hollow Knight are masterpieces), but Celeste honestly bored the hell out of me. Yes, the controls were precise and the difficulty was fair, but ... I just couldn't bring myself to care. It didn't feel like I was discovering anything or on any sort of journey. I guess the difficulty made "thematic" sense because the game was about mental illness or whatever, but in games like Dark Souls it's just one facet of the game's brilliantly oppressive atmosphere.

So, yeah, I don't want a Mario game to feel like Dark Souls, because it doesn't make sense. Mario should be a joyful experience. That's not to say it should be a fucking joke, but I haven't found any Mario game I've played to be "so easy it's boring" or "brutally hard" (including classics like the OG SMB and SMB3).

 

[Astral Dog]

They still release some challenging games , Metroid Dread for example, others you choose the difficulty like Fire Emblem,Xenoblade etc.

However i agree they made Mario too easy this gen, and hope they raise the bar next time , it doesn't need to be the Souls of platformers or anything like that, but offer a decent challenge for veterans, Mario 3D World was good,Mario U as well

with modern Mario they always are messing up the difficulty,they get it right then make it too easy and again

i don't think Nintendo just wants to offer easy games,but each series has its intented audience, and overall they lowered the challenge in their most popular series

 

[baphomet]

Wonder isn't easier than any of the old Mario games. It's actually quite a bit more difficult in areas than anything Super Mario World ever threw at you.

You just sucked at games as a kid and remember them being hard. They're not. They never were.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

A player not completing the game is considered a failure for Nintendo. Masahiro Sakurai even discusses the topic in one of this YT videos.

I've been saying this for years. Low completion rates of games is a bad sign.

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

Wonder isn't easier than any of the old Mario games. It's actually quite a bit more difficult in areas than anything Super Mario World ever threw at you.

You just sucked at games as a kid and remember them being hard. They're not. They never were.

You're just flat out wrong on this one, sorry, but play SM3/smw, new sup mario u deluxe then Wonder. It's not just about level design, it's what they're adding and removing in terms of power ups, lack of timers, forgiving mechanics. For instance in Wonder you get to hold an extra power up at all times during the level! What is that if not one of the most rediculous challenge-killing mechanics ever? You get hit and turn into small mario? Just hold the a button to get a free power up! See? This is what I mean.