I’m not those people. Address what I actually said.
The people in this thread talking about “politics” are those in opposition of black, gay, strong women being in thematic situations they deem unrealistic.
From my perspective, that’s just as much “politics” as anything else.
I haven't noticed that, and would strongly contest any notion that a majority of people in the thread are against the idea of more diversity. However, if it's the idea of forced diversity, i.e it's done to reduce the character down to a set of inherent traits to define them altogether (and then pushing those traits or identifiers as the way to market the story to people, shaming them if they don't like that type of marketing), and potentially gets in the way of genuine storytelling, then THAT is what the majority have a problem with and I'm alongside of them on that.
It's funny, because there was actually plenty of diversity in media even going back to the '80s, both in the media itself and in creating it. Yet IMHO stuff used to do it right; diversify the cast, but don't forget to make the characters interesting (and, moreso, make sure they have some flaws that they can work through to become even better characters), don't put down one group just to prop up another, and don't focus on a diverse character's traits/identifiers as being the end-all, be-all to that character's story.
So in many ways, we've actually
regressed since the '00s in that aspect.
No way you could possibly argue the story to Citizen Kaine isn’t “political”
Same with TLOU. Think about our current reality with Coronavirus. TLOU definitely explored the moral and political implications of society dealing with such an event.
That's the problem, though; those stories aren't "political" in the sense of having a specific political narrative or philosophy (that mostly benefits politicians, banks and corporate interests ahead of the common person's) to push. They aren't trying to push ideas to force about certain economic policies upon the populace, or pushing support for a government initiative (going to war, widespread invasion of privacy, etc.).
No, they're stories with themes that have political implications, but are done subtly and in ways to explore those ideas in how they affect people in terms of classic virtues that have been a staple of storytelling for thousands of years.
I agree, but it doesn’t mean there’s some nefarious political agenda when other demographics are gravitated to.
That's what I'd like to think, and there are some works out there today which have diverse casts but have no agenda to them. Quite a few, in fact. Unfortunately, it's harder for those works to get the recognition they deserve by some because there have been works the past few years pushing diversity for a political agenda, and
those works have poisoned the well.
In fact I'd say it's not necessarily the fact those works have used diversity to push an agenda, so much as the way those works have used diversity to push their agenda. Their methods have been incredibly divisive, and not just to the groups they clearly want to disregard or put down.
I’m not white and agree I’ve learned to enjoy plenty of media despite the fact that it purposely caters to people not like me.
But when you look at the GLOBAL scale, there's actually a LOT of work that does not focus on white audiences, both in terms of marketing, who the characters comprise of, or who makes them. Asian cinema is huge, and some of my favorite movies are Japanese & Korean (almost all of them cyberpunk movies). There's very few white people in those films and they're clearly aimed at Asian audiences, doesn't stop me from watching them tho.
Same thing with India and their Bollywood films; some of the biggest films in the world, that entire scene is basically for Indians. And given the population of India, it makes perfect sense. Then you have Nigeria and their Nollywood film scene; same thing. You're going to barely see any white people in those at any capacity, and when you consider the population of the country, it makes sense.
If you want to ask why the works from those places would be so homogeneous, it's because their populations are homogeneous. Common correlation. America may not be homogeneous in that way, but the majority of the population is still white. So it shouldn't be any surprise (nor problem) if the majority of people behind media in America are white, or the majority of characters in American media are white.
In fact I would say, from the 1980s onward, if you were to weigh representation in media across all scales of the media, honestly I'd say the ratio split between whites and blacks in America is pretty accurate to the population ratio. The problem is that for certain people today, EVERY piece of media needs to seemingly have an equal ratio of diverse people in it, to be considered progressive. That's BS. If I'm watching something like Boyz In The Hood, I don't need a white character central to that story. It doesn't mean John Singleton's suddenly a racist for not casting a white person for the role.
Conversely, if it's something like Bam Stoker's Dracula, I don't need any black central characters (or any other minority character) in that type of story, given the nature of the story. It doesn't make the movie suddenly racist for not having any. Besides, if I really want to watch a black Dracula movie, I'd just watch Eddie Murphy's one
There’s not even an argument to be made that straight white males aren’t over represented in the media. It’s what it is, you just admitted it yourself.
Everyone else just wants a piece of that.
But they aren't. Again, tell me how many straight white males you'd see in Asian cinema, or Bollywood films, or Nollywood films, etc. You probably wouldn't even break half of a percent! Maybe you seem to perceive they're overrepresented in American media because of the media you consume, but that's not the way I see it.
When you weigh everything out, I'd say they're accurately represented in terms of percentages across all media. Yes, you may get them vastly more represented in very specific aspects of media or specific genres of media, but how is that any different than, say, the large presence of black people in basketball, or Latinos in baseball? Should we go tell them "hey, there's too many of you here, we need to hit some quotas!"?
I already said my issue with using percentages as a means to determine "how much" of a group you should even factor into a story, since it's a very lopsided thing and only takes into account human characters, but almost all of your arguments so far are predicated on this very metric. As for "everyone else" wanting a piece of that, they already have it. The issue for them would be it's not "the big one", but now that is them basically disregarding the smaller efforts since they aren't mainstream enough.
That's a very shortsighted way of looking at things IMHO.
[quote
This is what I’m talking about. When the story caters to white males it’s “natural”
When it caters to anyone else it’s “hack creators” and their divisiveness.
[/quote]
Well, I won't deny there are probably some people out there who see it that way. However, the majority of people against these agendas are NOT like that.
The problem is that, in the past few years, there are legitimate hack creators who've used diversity as a means of pushing an agenda and doing so badly. They're poisoning the well, essentially. So other people get more hyperbolic in their reactions, and get more suspect of any work that's pushing diversity as a result.
Are they right to do so? I don't know. All you can ask for is that they still give said work a chance based on its own merits, and if it just happens to have natural diversity, then there shouldn't be a problem in enjoying the work. And when (if?) the hacks using diversity as an agenda simmer down and get phased out, those who are more suspect of it in works will ease off on that in return. If they don't, then they'll probably just become the next target of scorn since, again, the majority of people against this SJW stuff right now are not against natural diversity or inclusiveness.
How is group A(presumably white males) being put down by group b(presumably black, female, gay,) existing?
Dude, just look at American comic books. Probably the best example of what I'm talking about. Look at what they've done to characters like Captain America in the comics. In fact, MANY comic characters (especially Marvel ones) have had their legacies desecrated, particularly the white male characters.
I'd advise you do some looking into it because what's been happening with Marvel comics is a perfect example of putting one group down to prop another group up.
There’s nothing in this game or any game I can think of that paints straight white males as inherently bad. But I could think of plenty that paint every one else as the villain.
Then name them. Because I'm willing to bet I can find a way those same games also have straight white male villains along side "everyone else".
Why do you only consider it “divide and conquer” when it goes in one direction?
I don't. Birth of a Nation is a perfect example of something propping up one group (whites) while putting another group (blacks) down, and it's a
disgusting film for doing so. But it's also over a hundred years old, it's ancient history. And the examples of media doing that type of divide-and-conquer is virtually nil these days.
It doesn't excuse media that did it in the past, but past media doing it one way does NOT excuse current media seemingly doing it in the inverse.
Storys can go both ways. Some characters are defined by their personal demographics. Some aren’t.
Both are valid in my opinion.
Well, the stories that have characters defined by their personal demographics, if they're good stories, will almost always
also have those characters defined by things outside of their traits/identifiers. Again, take a movie like Doom Generation. Yes, the characters' sexuality is a big driving factor of the story, but it's by no means the only (or even most important) thing that defines them.
Reality is, one demographic has been over represented historically regardless if their demographic is integral to their story.
Nope, this is 100% false. Again, in America, whites make up 60 + percent of the population. I'm sure it's at least that ratio (probably more tbh) across Europe, especially in eastern European countries. Nothing wrong with that, so there's nothing wrong with them making up the majority of characters in Western media.
Because, again, given the sheer AMOUNT of media produced, you will find a ton of media with minority populations in them as well. And when you look at the global market outside of Western countries, groups you'd consider ethnic minority populations in America by FAR make up the majority of representation in that foreign media, such as Asian cinema, Bollywood, Nollywood films etc.
I'd say probably the only minority group that is a minority regardless where in the world you look would be LBGT, basically meaning there's no scene, domestic or foreign, where they are a majority or vast majority. However, since any LBGT person would also be of any particular ethnic background, at least on that metric they can still claim representation as a majority in some given country or region's entertainment scene, depending on any number of factors.
