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[bender]

Because if developers are putting a game out on a platform, it doesn't matter if its selling 1, 100, 1000 or a million copies. Any one parting with their hard earned money deserves to get the best version of a game possible for the hardware.

But yeah, that's cool...you take the side of the developer...

Next, you should say that anyone on the xbox platform is even lucky to get the games and we should be happy to spend 70 dollars for an inferior product.

 

[onQ123]

Damn shame that developers have to address fuckwads on twitter directly, but ah well.

Everyone wants to be the tabloids nowadays.

But on topic this all leads back to what I said years ago PS5 has the straight forward rendering advantage & will mostly come out the gate with the better running game while devs will have to move stuff over to compute & optimize for Series X memory configuration.


People think it's because PS5 is getting extra optimization when really it's just that in a lot of games Series X just need more optimization.

 

[Hawking Radiation]

FFS

 

[In Cold Blood]

I don't how much Mark Cerny makes, but it isn't enough.

He looks at it from a developers point of view, because he is one.
He thinks about what is needed to get the power out of the console as quick and easy as possible. Time to triangle.
This has been a big driving force, a lesson well and truly learnt from the PS3 years, and it has shown. Devs love working on the PS5.
Xbox on the other hand was designed by engineers. Lots of great innovations and potential, but not so easy to exploit.

You can see the benefits to Cernys strategies.

 

[Captain Toad]

He looks at it from a developers point of view, because he is one.
He thinks about what is needed to get the power out of the console as quick and easy as possible. Time to triangle.
This has been a big driving force, a lesson well and truly learnt from the PS3 years, and it has shown. Devs love working on the PS5.
Xbox on the other hand was designed by engineers. Lots of great innovations and potential, but not so easy to exploit.

You can see the benefits to Cernys strategies.

Pretty cool, right?

 

[Silver Wattle]

Memory Bandwidth. 10GB @ 560 GB/s, 6GB @ 336 GB/s.
i bet this split isnt a joy to work with

never realised that
Memory. 16GB GDDR6 w/320 bit-wide bus
Memory Bandwidth. 10GB @ 560 GB/s, 6GB @ 336 GB/s.

that could mean some games are limited to 10 because it is faster

I don't want to go through 5 pages of posts, but in case it hasn't been mentioned, the memory speed do not stack, as in 560GB/s is the total system memory bandwidth limit and not 560+336.
Microsoft have deliberately obfuscated the limitation.

 

[ChiefDada]

So yeah. Xbox is 12TF but it's probably never going to get the development resources required to see that small uptick in power over the competition.

Who's fault is this and why wasn't this taken into account by those who swore SX was going to have a distinct advantage with multiplats?

Lots of great innovations and potential, but not so easy to exploit.

Such as? Xbox hardware seems to be more or less "off the shelf" while PS5 appears more custom/innovative.

 

[DenchDeckard]

Its always the hardwares fault with you guys...then games magically run on par or better than ps5 after some patches....like the devs are downloading more ram or unlocking the second gpu in the power brick after releasing their perfect software....

 

[onQ123]

Its always the hardwares fault with you guys...then games magically run on par or better than ps5 after some patches....like the devs are downloading more ram or unlocking the second gpu in the power brick after releasing their perfect software....

You sure you want to do this?


I've said it over & over again PS5 has the straight forward rendering advantage while Series X has the compute advantage these patches are most likely devs moving stuff to compute or dealing with the memory setup.


On the flip side a game could also use asset streaming & give PS5 another advantage.

 

[JerryinSoCal]

Didn't Playstation 'have the largest install base' when One X routinely pushed up to 75% higher resolutions compared to PS4 PRO when the games were 'developed with PlayStation in mind'?.. We just can not conveniently dismiss hardware side of things, software even 'unoptimized' is running within the confines of a set hardware. Neither console is close to reaching its full potential.

The One X had a bigger power advantage over the PS4 Pro than XSX has over PS5. There wasn't anything the Pro did better than the One X but there are several things that the PS5 can do better than the Series X.

 

[onQ123]

The One X had a bigger power advantage over the PS4 Pro than XSX has over PS5. There wasn't anything the Pro did better than the One X but there are several things that the PS5 can do better than the Series X.

Actually PS4 pro had the ROPs & fp16 compute advantage but it was held back by memory size & bandwidth.

We have seen a few games with better fps on PS4 Pro

 

[Paasei]

I still find it funny that before the announcement of this console nobody was ever talking about teraflops. Only now that became part of the marketing strategy. Do people actually know what that is and does?

Spoiler

I still don’t really know either.

 

[Lysandros]

The One X had a bigger power advantage over the PS4 Pro than XSX has over PS5. There wasn't anything the Pro did better than the One X but there are several things that the PS5 can do better than the Series X.

I am well aware of this (not only compute by the way) and this is exactly my point; this time around both systems have the edge depending on the GPU throughput be it fill rate, rasterization and compute so they end up being about equal in overall capabilities 'based on specs'. Hence my refusal to dismiss the hardware as a core factor.

My whole point is that this time the systems are essentially as powerful as each other (I/O aside) and this is the main factor which determines the current state of mostly on par performance, "largest install base" or not. As to PS5 performaning slightly better more often lately, i think this is mostly related to higher architectural efficiency, I/O and slightly lower level API (which requires extra dev time).

 

[DenchDeckard]

Who's fault is this and why wasn't this taken into account by those who swore SX was going to have a distinct advantage with multiplats?



Such as? Xbox hardware seems to be more or less "off the shelf" while PS5 appears more custom/innovative.

Devs fault

You sure you want to do this?


I've said it over & over again PS5 has the straight forward rendering advantage while Series X has the compute advantage these patches are most likely devs moving stuff to compute or dealing with the memory setup.


On the flip side a game could also use asset streaming & give PS5 another advantage.

WHy does plage tail run better on Xbox, why does resident evil 4 look better on series x? why does nearly every game with patches run and look better on xbox?

 

[onQ123]

Devs fault

WHy does plage tail run better on Xbox, why does resident evil 4 look better on series x? why does nearly every game with patches run and look better on xbox?

So you don't understand what you just replied to?

 

[DenchDeckard]

So you don't understand what you just replied to?

I just want you to explain, that if the ps5 has all these advantages why does the performance gap reduce after patches and is usually negated to the point that the xbox version can look and run better?

How does this hardware advantage of the ps5 magically disappear with patches?

 

[Lysandros]

but it was held back by memory size & bandwidth.

This is especially why i consider it to be the most lackluster console design put out by Sony. To be fair, i dislike it for introducing the 'mid-gen upgrade' concept in the first place.

 

[Loope]

I still find it funny that before the announcement of this console nobody was ever talking about teraflops. Only now that became part of the marketing strategy. Do people actually know what that is and does?

Spoiler

I still don’t really know either.

Where you in a coma? When the Xone and PS4 where announced that was all people claimed. Teraflops. Only that. Then when these consoles launched, that's when people started talking about it as just an element of the big picture (which it is).

 

[onQ123]

I just want you to explain, that if the ps5 has all these advantages why does the performance gap reduced after patches and is usually negated to the point that the xbox version can look and run better?

How does this hardware advantage of the ps5 magically disappear with patches?

Sorry but you seem to not have much understanding of this subject.

Me: PS5 has the straight forward rendering advantage while Series X has the compute advantage so the patches are most likely devs moving things over to compute & dealing with the Series X memory set up


You: If PS5 has these advantage why does the gap reduce after the patches?


You do understand that I just told you exactly why right?

 

[DenchDeckard]

Sorry but you seem to not have much understanding of this subject.

Me: PS5 has the straight forward rendering advantage while Series X has the compute advantage so the patches are most likely devs moving things over to compute & dealing with the Series X memory set up


You: If PS5 has these advantage why does the gap reduce after the patches?


You do understand that I just told you exactly why right?

Ahhh, now I totally get it. Apologies mate for missunderstanding. Basically the compute negates the rendering advantage so they end up being more or less on par.

Cool, got it.

I thought we were going into wild territory of how the PS5 will magically wipe the floor with the series X due to its magical hardware design...lol

 

[Kumomeme]

XSX = Trunks

PS5 = Goku/Cell

Spoiler

Also, it's easier to fully use 36 CU's in parallel that it is to fully use 48 CU's , When triangles are small, it's much harder to fill those CU's with usefull work" - Mark Cerny

Spoiler: 52 CU

Spoiler: 48 CU

Spoiler: 36 CU

 

[YeulEmeralda]

The TF arguments remind me of the power arguments in the PS3 vs XB360, PS3 was supposedly amazingly powerful etc, but it took so fucking long to get the games out, I didn't even think of getting it until the slim came out.

The PS3 got the worst third party ports. It was years before developers understood that system.

 

[Astray]

The PS3 got the worst third party ports. It was years before developers understood that system.

Yep. Feels to me like the XSX/XSS platform produced a similar result but in a different way, you really can't win as a dev who's doing an Xbox version:

• If you try to make the XSX version as good as PS5 you bump into XSS's limitations and Microsoft's parity requirements.
• If you set out for something that would fit both Xbox machines, your premium Xbox experience would likely not deliver as well as you can on PS5.

That alone is an unenviable catch-22, it might clear up at the 2nd half of the gen, but it's unlikely given how PS5 has dominated the console race and will likely command greater 3P attention as a result.

 

[Riky]

There is no "parity" requirements for Series S as seen by first party software, it's another made up complaint. As long as the gameplay and save works across both versions you're good.
Youv'e only got to look at the likes of Hitman, Lego Star Wars and Doom Eternal to see when you utilise Series X you get the best results on console.

 

[Topher]

Youv'e only got to look at the likes of Hitman, Lego Star Wars and Doom Eternal to see when you utilise Series X you get the best results on console.

But someone could make the same exact argument listing games that performed better on PS5.

 

[Riky]

But someone could make the same exact argument listing games that performed better on PS5.

Show me the game that launched day and date and was 4k but only 1800p on Series X.
We're soon moving to a UE5 world, check Fortnite right now.

 

[Yoboman]

Cerny said it all in the road to PS5

He is one of the smartest minds in gaming. Doubting him was foolish

 

[Topher]

Show me the game that launched day and date and was 4k but only 1800p on Series X.
We're soon moving to a UE5 world, check Fortnite right now.

Yes, but those games are outliers. The vast majority of games have marginal differences. Never has the power difference of competing consoles been as irrelevant as PS5 and XSX. You say UE5 will change that? Eh.....ok, I guess we will see.

 

[Riky]

Yes, but those games are outliers. The vast majority of games have marginal differences. Never has the power difference of competing consoles been as irrelevant as PS5 and XSX. You say UE5 will change that? Eh.....ok, I guess we will see.

I agree, the difference between the machines is small, like 17% in compute power so I doubt most people will notice much difference apart from pixel counters blowing up 400x screenshots.
I'd say Sony and the clock speed advantage does well on scaling up last gen engines with the same 36cu setup as PS4 Pro and big upgrades in memory and CPU giving it an easy upgrade path for Devs from PS4 Pro.
That doesn't quite hold true for Xbox coming from the One X, with a very different memory setup.
As we get into UE5 heavily and we're more compute heavy I expect Series X to come into its own, as shown by games I've mentioned from PC centric developers already.

 

[Astray]

As we get into UE5 heavily and we're more compute heavy I expect Series X to come into its own, as shown by games I've mentioned from PC centric developers already.

How do you know that UE5 is compute-heavy?

 

[bitbydeath]

Show me the game that launched day and date and was 4k but only 1800p on Series X.
We're soon moving to a UE5 world, check Fortnite right now.

I heard Fortnite looks better on PS5, happy to take a screenshot if you wanna do the same on XSX so we could do a true comparison. Just let me know where on the map.

 

[Riky]

I heard Fortnite looks better on PS5, happy to take a screenshot if you wanna do the same on XSX so we could do a true comparison. Just let me know where on the map.

DF did a comparison, so no need.

 

[Three]

This guy had some hilarious takes. I remember that Series S thread he did claiming it didn't exist, and then it got revealed like two weeks after. He was probably a troll, but he was kinda funny.

In all fairness to him he felt burnt by MS and the Xbox One X support and started complaining on other sites about it. Honestly I kind of agree they should have made the One X the cheap alternative system and got better support and just went for the Series X only release for next gen. It's not like they have a bunch of Series exclusives anyway.

 

[bitbydeath]

DF did a comparison, so no need.

Yeah but physical reports say otherwise.
We could sort this easy, take a shot on your Xbox and I’ll do the same on PS5.

 

[DenchDeckard]

Show me the game that launched day and date and was 4k but only 1800p on Series X.
We're soon moving to a UE5 world, check Fortnite right now.

What's the difference between fortnite on ps5 vs series x?

That's the best benchmark we have right now. Developed by Epics unlimited budget and pushing both systems.

 

[Riky]

Yeah but physical reports say otherwise.
We could sort this easy, take a shot on your Xbox and I’ll do the same on PS5.

What's the difference between fortnite on ps5 vs series x?

That's the best benchmark we have right now. Developed by Epics unlimited budget and pushing both systems.

Epic themselves gave the figures.

"based on our conversations with Epic, both PS5 and Series X target 4K via temporal super resolution, with an internal resolution of anywhere from 864p to 1836p - a massive range. On average, PS5 delivers 55 percent of 4K on each axis, while Series X is slightly higher at 59 percent."

You can work out the pixel counts from that.

 

[Topher]

What's the difference between fortnite on ps5 vs series x?

That's the best benchmark we have right now. Developed by Epics unlimited budget and pushing both systems.

"On average, PS5 delivers 55 percent of 4K on each axis, while Series X is slightly higher at 59 percent. Owing to the way image reconstruction works, it's very difficult to see any difference at all between the two versions."

Fortnite's massive UE5 update delivers next-gen features on all consoles at 60fps

Lumen, Nanite, Unreal Engine 5. These watchwords for a new generation of game developers are now finally realised in a shipping game: Epic's own Fortnite.

www.eurogamer.net

 

[Darsxx82]

I heard Fortnite looks better on PS5, happy to take a screenshot if you wanna do the same on XSX so we could do a true comparison. Just let me know where on the map.

DF did a review/comparison and developer interview for Fornite UE5.
The bottom line is that XSX runs at 15.2% higher average resolution (55%4k vs 59%4K) at the same performance and graphics quality as PS5.

Yeah but physical reports say otherwise.
We could sort this easy, take a shot on your Xbox and I’ll do the same on PS5.

Physical reports?

The comparison is made with the support of the developers....and in it you have the comparative images you want.

 

[bitbydeath]

Why doesn’t anyone want to do a real comparison?
It only takes a second.

 

[bitbydeath]

Physical report?

Message board chatter.
Thought it’d be more fun to prove it, rather than boring numbers which may mean nothing. The game is free, not hard to take a screenshot.

 

[Riky]

Message board chatter or figures straight from the developer and a comparison by people who compare games for a living.

 

[Darsxx82]

Message board chatter.
Thought it’d be more fun to prove it, rather than boring numbers which may mean nothing. The game is free, not hard to take a screenshot.

Are you insinuating that the developers themselves and DF are possibly lying and that the comparative images and videos that they indicate can be manipulated??

..... That is funny..

 

[Topher]

All these sub-4k resolutions are going to be upscaled and the differences largely unnoticeable as DF pointed out with Fortnite. Hopefully consoles will be able to continue offering performance modes. That's my main concern going forward, personally.

 

[bitbydeath]

Are you insinuating that the developers themselves and DF are possibly lying? ..... That is funny..

Your deflections don’t make you sound very confident in your convictions. Prove me wrong, take a photo, give me a shot of the map and I’ll do the same.

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

Its always the hardwares fault with you guys...then games magically run on par or better than ps5 after some patches....like the devs are downloading more ram or unlocking the second gpu in the power brick after releasing their perfect software....

I tend to look at it as the issues, be it hardware or devs+sotware aren't mutually exclusive.

In that, yes, the XBSX is just as capable and in some areas even better than the PS5 from a pure hardware standpoint, but be it parts of that hardware configuration or the APIs between the hardware and the devs.. it's just a simple fact that devs need to put more work into the XB versions to get the same results they would get on the PS5 in the same amount of time.

Sure if the devs choose to delay the game for a couple more months and only focus on the Xbox versions, they would bring it at least up to par. But whose fault is that? Arent the APIs governing the hardware just as integral to the hardware itself? Or isn't the ease to get results on a platform just as important as how much power that platform has?

Just look at the PS3. As the saying goes, power without control is useless.

 

[Riky]

Xbox also have The Coalition involved with UE5 development which makes sense when a lot of first party games are using the engine.

"We also have yet to add hardware Variable Rate Shading optimizations which we demonstrated benefits through VRS in Gears 5 on XSX/S, that are not yet in UE5 but The Coalition plans to work with Epic to add. These Xbox-specific advantages are on top of cross-platform optimizations we expect from Epic on the road to UE5 official release next year."

https://wccftech.com/unreal-engine-...-was-not-fully-optimized-for-xbox-series-x-s/

so I'm hoping for further improvements.

 

[Darsxx82]

Your deflections don’t make you sound very confident in your convictions. Prove me wrong, take a photo, give me a shot of the map and I’ll do the same.

LOL I don't have XSX at home and I haven't installed Fornite either. Anyone else can do it if he wants.

And yet, you are the one who questions DF and the developers themselves. You are the one who should provide proof that they could be lying.

 

[Darsxx82]

All these sub-4k resolutions are going to be upscaled and the differences largely unnoticeable as DF pointed out with Fortnite. Hopefully consoles will be able to continue offering performance modes. That's my main concern going forward, personally.

The fantastic Epic TSR will help a lot for that purpose. More when UE5 is going to be used mostly. Its results in the image scale is spectacular.

 

[ThaMonkeyClaw]

It definitely has more flops than any other console.

 

[Bernoulli]

Damn shame that developers have to address fuckwads on twitter directly, but ah well.

Why does it need more optimization ?
Do devs optimise more for a 3070 to be faster than the 3060?