S0ULZB0URNE
Member
Hate em all
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Game character ethnicities/sex - Where do you draw the line between anti-woke and racist pushback?
- Thread starter atyourservice
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Nickolaidas
Member
Oh my God! You're right!! It's almost like when you market a female IP to females, it is lucrative! Thank you for pointing out what I've been saying!
Doom85
Member
Yeah, but the film had woke messaging in it! Go woke, go-
Barbie
www.boxofficemojo.com
-the highest grossing movie of 2023.
Also, in terms of keeping “woke” out of Marvel, maybe you should have hopped into a time travel machine and discussed that with the original creator himself:
“From time to time, we receive letters from readers who wonder why there’s so much moralizing in our mags. They take great pains to point out that comics are supposed to be escapist reading, and nothing more. But somehow, I can’t see it that way. It seems to me that a story without a message, however subliminal, is like a man without a soul. In fact, even the most escapist literature of all- old time fairy tales and heroic legends - contained moral and philosophical points of view.
At every college campus where I may speak there’s as much discussion of war and peace, civil rights, and the so-called youth rebellion as there is of our Marvel mags per se. None of us lives in a vacuum - none of us is untouched by the events about us - events which shape our stories just as they shape our lives. Sure our tales can be called escapist - but just because something’s for fun, doesn’t mean we have to blanket our brains while we read! Excelsior!”
- some guy named Stan Lee (1970)
The Green Lantern/Green Arrow run of the 70’s dealt heavily with civil rights issues, environmental issues, drug issues, etc. The most iconic comics of the 80’s, Watchmen, Dark Knight Returns, and Maus, all had significant political elements to them. Wonder Woman, Black Panther, Static Shock, etc. have dealt with political issues and such for decades. X-men uses a metaphor but it’s extremely on-the-nose and sometimes just flat out displays real world discrimination (the 90’s cartoon for example once had Wolverine and Storm time travel back to the 50’s and get attacked at a bar for appearing as an interracial couple). Batman comics frequently discuss the justification of vigilantism. And so on and so forth.
Anyone saying to “keep this out of” Marvel, or comics in general, clearly doesn’t have much familiarity with Marvel or comics in general.
kyussman
Member
People don't care if a game character is black or a woman,it's 2024 for fuck sake.......but today every black character comes with a big helping of,have this because all white men are shit and every woman character comes with,here have this because all men are misogynist.....it's fucking exhausting.
Sept Terrion Of Nothing
Member
Like The Architect said in Matrix: If you force something on humans they instinctively reject it.
These DEI, woke etc. things. They are forcing it. They display fascist behavior whether they are aware or not. Forcing their ideals to the products. They are following an agenda, it is obvious but like I said, they are forcing it. I reject this.
As I've said before, I don't have anything to trans, gay, lesbien (or whatever) people. I don't have anything to woman protagonist. I don't have anything to black (or asian or whatever) protagonist. But for God's sake, when they force their DEI, woke ideals on me, I get really angry and reject it from the start. Do I force my ideals to you? Do you want me to force my ideals to you? Nobody wants that man.
These DEI, woke etc. things. They are forcing it. They display fascist behavior whether they are aware or not. Forcing their ideals to the products. They are following an agenda, it is obvious but like I said, they are forcing it. I reject this.
As I've said before, I don't have anything to trans, gay, lesbien (or whatever) people. I don't have anything to woman protagonist. I don't have anything to black (or asian or whatever) protagonist. But for God's sake, when they force their DEI, woke ideals on me, I get really angry and reject it from the start. Do I force my ideals to you? Do you want me to force my ideals to you? Nobody wants that man.
Nickolaidas
Member
Keep. Things. Meant. For boys. Targeted. At boys.Yeah, but the film had woke messaging in it! Go woke, go-
Barbie
-the highest grossing movie of 2023.
Also, in terms of keeping “woke” out of Marvel, maybe you should have hopped into a time travel machine and discussed that with the original creator himself:
“From time to time, we receive letters from readers who wonder why there’s so much moralizing in our mags. They take great pains to point out that comics are supposed to be escapist reading, and nothing more. But somehow, I can’t see it that way. It seems to me that a story without a message, however subliminal, is like a man without a soul. In fact, even the most escapist literature of all- old time fairy tales and heroic legends - contained moral and philosophical points of view.
At every college campus where I may speak there’s as much discussion of war and peace, civil rights, and the so-called youth rebellion as there is of our Marvel mags per se. None of us lives in a vacuum - none of us is untouched by the events about us - events which shape our stories just as they shape our lives. Sure our tales can be called escapist - but just because something’s for fun, doesn’t mean we have to blanket our brains while we read! Excelsior!”
- some guy named Stan Lee (1970)
The Green Lantern/Green Arrow run of the 70’s dealt heavily with civil rights issues, environmental issues, drug issues, etc. The most iconic comics of the 80’s, Watchmen, Dark Knight Returns, and Maus, all had significant political elements to them. Wonder Woman, Black Panther, Static Shock, etc. have dealt with political issues and such for decades. X-men uses a metaphor but it’s extremely on-the-nose and sometimes just flat out displays real world discrimination (the 90’s cartoon for example once had Wolverine and Storm time travel back to the 50’s and get attacked at a bar for appearing as an interracial couple). Batman comics frequently discuss the justification of vigilantism. And so on and so forth.
Anyone saying to “keep this out of” Marvel, or comics in general, clearly doesn’t have much familiarity with Marvel or comics in general.
Keep. Things. Meant. For girls. Targeted. At girls.
Seriously, it's not rocket science.
Barbie succeeded because it targeted the right demographic, and didn't try to become a Rambo action flick in order to market itself towards boys, because that would turn off the original audience.
All this Stan Lee quoting has literally nothing to do with what I am saying and is completely irrelevant to my point about target audiences.
PeteBull
Member
Sorry bro but u just argue to argue, ppl keep telling u how we- sane ppl see it, and explaining properly comercial succes of girly movie (Barbie) using logics, yet u still cant comprehend it somehow, if u dont wanna accept reality u can always keep sitting in woke bubble, that is fine too.
U have many romantic comedies- movies targeted to female audience(coz male audience isnt delusional enough to believe in anything that happens in there, i know coz watched plenty, but with obvious ulterior motive sicne i wasnt watching those on my own
and many of them are commercial succes.Same way u got comics/movies with sueperheroes- those are targeted to the boys/men(we know they all are fiction, and are ok with it, its not reality, its our escape from sad and harsh reality)- if they get infected with woke virus so no more masculinity/brutality/wit in them then ofc they get terrible sales, like all newer marvel movies that got woke and all comicbooks that got woke too, u got so many examples yet u fail to see them somehow.
And i say it as a teenager who loved punisher comic books back in the 90s, with classic punisher that included all that, brutality, masculity, no mercy for criminals/true evil etc, males love that shit while for girls and women its super offputing, same way like for us-males- all the romantic comiedies are
And last quick example, that new superhero movie, highly praised by fans and commercially very succesful, guess what is not in it-wokeness, and what is- good old masculinity, wit and brutality:
Nickolaidas
Member
During the part you were jacking off, thinking you had your gacha, did you read the part where I said that nobody cares if Barbie is a woke feminist bruhaha?
And by wokeness, I mean the emasculation of men, the desexualization of women, the race/gender swaps and the constant need to 'subvert expectations'.
Games and movies have numerous inspirations from real world politics. Everyone can see that the Galactic Empire is inspired by Nazi Germany, but you don't see Palpatine having Hitler's moustache and speak with a german accent. Because wokeness is about treating its audience like they're fucking morons.
Doom85
Member
Sorry bro but u just argue to argue, ppl keep telling u how we- sane ppl see it, and explaining properly comercial succes of girly movie (Barbie) using logics, yet u still cant comprehend it somehow, if u dont wanna accept reality u can always keep sitting in woke bubble, that is fine too.
U have many romantic comedies- movies targeted to female audience(coz male audience isnt delusional enough to believe in anything that happens in there, i know coz watched plenty, but with obvious ulterior motive sicne i wasnt watching those on my own
Same way u got comics/movies with sueperheroes- those are targeted to the boys/men(we know they all are fiction, and are ok with it, its not reality, its our escape from sad and harsh reality)- if they get infected with woke virus so no more masculinity/brutality/wit in them then ofc they get terrible sales, like all newer marvel movies that got woke and all comicbooks that got woke too, u got so many examples yet u fail to see them somehow.
And i say it as a teenager who loved punisher comic books back in the 90s, with classic punisher that included all that, brutality, masculity, no mercy for criminals/true evil etc, males love that shit while for girls and women its super offputing, same way like for us-males- all the romantic comiedies are
And last quick example, that new superhero movie, highly praised by fans and commercially very succesful, guess what is not in it-wokeness, and what is- good old masculinity, wit and brutality:
Typical PeteBull, says a bunch of shit without addressing the actual point. Nickolaidas claimed wokeness should stay out of Marvel and DC. The original creator of Marvel, Stan Lee, disagrees. The entire history of superhero comics is filled with political messages.
So are you, or Nickolaidas for that matter, going to address that, or just rant inconherently?
Also, were you having a stroke when you wrote this part?
Fail to see them? Do you live in some alternate reality where Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns weren’t huge successes? Where Green Lantern/Green Arrow wasn’t widely acclaimed and still gets re-releases to this day (they just released a new omnibus edition)? Where Wonder Woman and Black Panther haven’t done well for the many decades since they’ve been created?
Most of these are “woke” comics with their heavy political elements and messaging. The thing Nickolaidas said “should stay out of” Marvel and DC despite them being a part of them already for the VAST majority of their existence.
Do you even know what the fuck you’re rambling about?
Edit: Also, “argue to argue”. You could just admit you want an echo chamber.
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Nickolaidas
Member
And to make a final point:
If (insert IP here) was 'always woke', then why did it need to be 'updated for a modern audience'?
If (insert IP here) was 'always woke', then why did it need to be 'updated for a modern audience'?
Doom85
Member
But you can’t say “nobody cares” because of the “go woke, go broke” message the anti-woke jack off to. Last time I checked, the message wasn’t “go woke, go broke……..except all these exceptions (pulls out list”.
Also, last time I checked, Watchmen flat out used the Cold War, Green Lantern/Green Arrow flat out discusses racism against black people, Wonder Woman flat out talks about feminism, Black Panther talks about racism, etc. This isn’t “inspiration”, they’re flat out in the comic.
It wasn’t updated. Marvel and DC didn’t change. Instead, people who don’t know as much about these IPs as they think they do started complaining about “not politics in muh comics!”, and here we are.
jzbadblood
Neo Member
Tired of the racism, sexism, and transphobia. So much hate. People spend too much time online in echo chambers and don't engage with the outside world. At the end of the day video games are just toys.
FoxMcChief
Gold Member
When the game makes me think about it. Shit should just be natural. I have zero issues with inclusion, as long as it makes sense and isn’t cringy. My wife has dubbed me an equal opportunity hater as I hate all religions, political parties, genders and ethnicities the same.
InterMusketeer
Member
This entire discussion is pointless if the participants can't agree on what 'woke' even is.
It seems like you think 'woke' is just a synonym for anything political/left-leaning/progressive. But I think the people you're talking to have a much more narrow view of what 'woke' is. It's probably a soup consisting of toxic elements of social justice, identity politics/intersectionality and critical race theory with some virtue signalling sprinkled on top. But I shan't presume to speak for them.
Taking this in account, the meaning of Stan Lee's statement can be interpreted completely differently. After all, you can easily have political and progressive messages in media without it being woke.
Nickolaidas
Member
The irony.
Nickolaidas
Member
Nailed it.
Doom85
Member
My quote was from 1970, and clearly the messages in Stan’s comics weren’t that subtle if they got letters complaining about “moralizing” in the comics. Your quote is from decades later based on Stan’s age, when Stan probably misremembered that the messaging was that subtle back then (ah yes, the Silver Age of comics was well known for “subtlety”……..(snicker)). The fact that my quote refers to the letters from complainers proves that clearly there was some people who had a negative reaction to “moralizing” in Stan Lee’s comics. The modern people who whine about “why politics in muh comics!” are the same shit.
Regardless. I have listed a ton of examples from both Marvel and DC of the decades throughout that used real world politics in their stories. Not allegorical, but rather the straight up, clear cut politics. Wonder Woman’s creator was flat out clear that he was putting his feminist views into the title. Watchmen used the Cold War and has characters flat out expressing their views on nuclear warfare, the Vietnam War, and such. Dark Knight Returns frequently talked about real world politicians. Green Lantern/Green Arrow has Green Arrow criticizing Hal Jordan for being indifferent to the struggles of the black community. These are all characters and comic runs that are considered classics now.
Even the allegorical comics got less subtle. Chris Claremont was far less subtle with the political elements of X-men compared to Stan Lee’s run. And the Claremont run is FAR more beloved in comparison. Which surely you should know already since you claim to be so knowledgeable about comics.
Doom85
Member
Well, then the anti-woke should get together and define it properly. It’s hilariously stupid to constantly whine about something that they can’t even agree on what qualifies. It’s easy to say, “go woke, go broke” if one can just twist the meaning of “woke” to whatever conveniently works for them. It’s why certain anti-woke grifters have started to been called out recently, and it’s about fucking time.
FoxMcChief
Gold Member
I think a good start for what’s “woke” is making female characters ugly/fat on purpose. Especially if they’re modeled from an attractive woman.
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Zacfoldor
Member
Anytime a character is race swapped arbitrarily, ostensible to increase diversity....
Anytime a character is gender swapped arbitrarily, ostensible to increase diversity....
Anytime a character is uglified or fattened arbitrarily, ostensible to increase diversity....
Anytime a character is discriminated against or when prejudice is applied, for any reason....I'll be there.
Nickolaidas
Member
And the woke should get together and define what Nazi, grifter, racist, sexist and homophobe means.
Cause I don't think you guys are using those words properly either.
Doom85
Member
Thanks for proving a point I made earlier in the thread.
Woke and anti-woke: far more alike than either would care to admit.
tkscz
Member
Let me tell you, liking fat women, this chick is ugly. Fat women do not look good with that awful shaved head look. Makes them look closer to men. Also what the fuck is with this weirdness of having a fat face but somehow at the same time cheekbones? It's one or the other. If she has fat round cheeks that should be what she has, it's uncanny otherwise. Lastly the masculine chin again. Why does she have a squared jaw? She's fat, she shouldn't have a chin or have a around head so if she does have a chin, the jaw is circular not squared. Why is this so hard?
Anything resembling this is a good start.
Ranting over on Topic.
Extreme-ism is extreme-ism. The line is very thin between the two ways of thinking but it works all the same. Anti-woke is SUPPOSED to be just pushing back against woke obsession but has slowly become damn near the same as just being an ist-a-phobe. It should be focused on not removing the idea of inclusion but removing the obsession that everything should be inclusive even if it doesn't fit. But as of late people forgot that and even if something stars a woman as the main playable character they start to get butt hurt, like chill.
We shouldn't be focused on removing characters like the above one, but removing the idea that the character MUST be included in every game that gets created. Creativity to the creator.
Nickolaidas
Member
You're not fooling anyone.
Thanks for proving a point I made earlier in the thread.
Woke and anti-woke: far more alike than either would care to admit.
Doom85
Member
That said all of those words are *much better defined than ‘woke’* False equivalency much?
gaheris
Member
Here is what I don't understand, why is explaining the perspective of someone who is transexual wrong? I see it as educational, showing how some people see themselves rather than some agenda. There is an undercurrent to how people see LGBTQ people that you don't see discussed, that it is a choice. That education about it, and seeing these stories in the media makes it more likely that other people will make that choice.
In reality, education is about offering information to those who or when they are questioning it for themselves, and to minimize the hate and othering of these groups by their fellow students. That's it, it isn't some huge thing because most of the kids are going to be straight so it doesn't. It is for the kids and whoever who are questioning why they are different, so they can ask those questions and not feel like they are broken, what is wrong about that?
Sexuality and gender identity are complex. I guess that during the first trimester, it is how the brain develops when gender begins to be expressed where slight deviations as cells divide and specialize can change how a person will see themselves and or their sexuality. I don't believe that your sexuality or gender identity is something that you choose, it's something baked in the cake from early on. It doesn't matter to most people, it doesn't impact most people so who the hell cares? Leave these people alone.
I don't understand what woke means, it just sounds stupid. It wasn't political until politicians decided to use a group that makes up what 2% of the population of the USA as a villain not because they did anything but because they can't fight back. Most of these people are just trying to live their lives. They are just people, who probably don't care what you think and are more scared of what their friends and family will. A person's sexuality and or gender identity has nothing to do with anything but themselves, it doesn't impact anyone else but them but somehow has become this evil thing. This WOKE stuff is just BS, an excuse so people can feel validated to spew out their hate online. Let's call a spade a spade.
In reality, education is about offering information to those who or when they are questioning it for themselves, and to minimize the hate and othering of these groups by their fellow students. That's it, it isn't some huge thing because most of the kids are going to be straight so it doesn't. It is for the kids and whoever who are questioning why they are different, so they can ask those questions and not feel like they are broken, what is wrong about that?
Sexuality and gender identity are complex. I guess that during the first trimester, it is how the brain develops when gender begins to be expressed where slight deviations as cells divide and specialize can change how a person will see themselves and or their sexuality. I don't believe that your sexuality or gender identity is something that you choose, it's something baked in the cake from early on. It doesn't matter to most people, it doesn't impact most people so who the hell cares? Leave these people alone.
I don't understand what woke means, it just sounds stupid. It wasn't political until politicians decided to use a group that makes up what 2% of the population of the USA as a villain not because they did anything but because they can't fight back. Most of these people are just trying to live their lives. They are just people, who probably don't care what you think and are more scared of what their friends and family will. A person's sexuality and or gender identity has nothing to do with anything but themselves, it doesn't impact anyone else but them but somehow has become this evil thing. This WOKE stuff is just BS, an excuse so people can feel validated to spew out their hate online. Let's call a spade a spade.
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Hallelujah! I'm glad someone said it! I've been waiting years to finally see these nazi chuds get called out. I'm sick of being inundated with their grifter idealogy that's permeating the gaming industry and Hollywood and stuff recently where properties keep getting co-opted and injected with modern anti-woke politics. Can you even find content that doesn't have heteronormative and cisgendered characters shoehorned in anymore?
It's been dire, but now that these these anti-woke grifters are finally getting called out, I'm sure the other shoe is about to drop and they'll be on their way out. Permanently!
Nickolaidas
Member
Because most people don't appreciate being lectured to when they want to be entertained. If I am playing a medieval fantasy RPG with the intention of killing dragons and defying gods, having seminars on how NOT to refer to 'non-binary' people and how to properly apologize isn't my idea of entertainment. It can be done, if done properly, but the majority of writers and creatives lack the ability to do so, and because they can't hide their bias. And when you point that out, there are lovely people like *you* who define that as 'hate'.
See above.
It can also be something that can be groomed into you through peer pressure, need for social validation, societal brainwashing and pure narcissism.
No, it was until certain politicians decided to treat certain groups as sacred cows.
And when they did just that, people didn't have a problem with them.
Then they started having calendar days devoted to them.
Then weeks.
Then months.
People no longer had to just live with them. They had to accept them.
Then they had to apologize to them.
And then they had to validate them.
And then they had to applaud them.
And then they had to cater to, pander and accommodate them.
And people have had enough.
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Nickolaidas
Member
This is some A-level trolling. Kudos, good xir/xer.Hallelujah! I'm glad someone said it! I've been waiting years to finally see these nazi chuds get called out. I'm sick of being inundated with their grifter idealogy that's permeating the gaming industry and Hollywood and stuff recently where properties keep getting co-opted and injected with modern anti-woke politics. Can you even find content that doesn't have heteronormative and cisgendered characters shoehorned in anymore?
It's been dire, but now that these these anti-woke grifters are finally getting called out, I'm sure the other shoe is about to drop and they'll be on their way out. Permanently!
KiteGr
Member
I just don't want to think about it anymore.
I get de-immersed every time I see...:
The damage is to big, all franchises have been killed, our minds trained to notice the trend and hate it, and the old good talent driven away, so I don't think things can ever go back to normal in any traditional way.
IMO at this point we should burn 90% of the recent woke media, keeping just the few good ones, stay completely away from anything resembling woke for a couple of years, and then once it has been missed reintroduce it's aspects normally this time.
I get de-immersed every time I see...:
- A girl talking, acting and achieving in ways a man normally would.
- A minority character appearing in places he is unlikely or shouldn't be there at all without people questioning his futures or existence.
- A very homosexual entering the fray, something normally a rare occurrence, without anyone batting an eye or uttering a single comment about it.
- All the above characters you can bet money they won't turn evil or incompetent, while a combination of straight, whites and males are always the root of all evil.
- More than double the homosexual kissing and shagging than the straight kind. More in the last 4 years that one would expect to encounter in his lifetime.
- Pronouns being taken seriously...
The damage is to big, all franchises have been killed, our minds trained to notice the trend and hate it, and the old good talent driven away, so I don't think things can ever go back to normal in any traditional way.
IMO at this point we should burn 90% of the recent woke media, keeping just the few good ones, stay completely away from anything resembling woke for a couple of years, and then once it has been missed reintroduce it's aspects normally this time.
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tl;dr
Dragon's Age is the correct setting to educate people about gender identity and the game is providing a service by doing so. If someone disagrees then it must mean they're a hateful meany.
Bernardougf
Member
So Americans (straight males) don't like watching lesbian sex? (Some females like watching it too)
Thats why...
Damigos
Member
When the words female and male are changed to body 1 and 2 wokeness lurks in the shadows.
When you must choose pronouns wokeness is apparent and caution is needed.
When out of nowhere a char says he/she/they or whatever stupid pronoun is trans then wokeness just destroyed your game.
When you must choose pronouns wokeness is apparent and caution is needed.
When out of nowhere a char says he/she/they or whatever stupid pronoun is trans then wokeness just destroyed your game.
Bernardougf
Member
TLOU 2 has bad writing tropes all around, be it plot holes, cringe bigot sandwiches like dialog, contrivances or simple inexplicable change in characters previous behavior and motivations, plus the bad pacing with the bad flip flops in the main characters gameplay and in the end Sprinkle all that with woke elements.
Dont want to enter in another TLOU2 discuassion because its fans are religious and I cant argue with religion.. but is by no means Objectively good. Its division of the fanbase should be enough to tell you that.
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DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
This woke/anti-woke argument is toxic AF. Especially when certain types of people get involved. If a game is good, I'll play it. If it's not, I won't.
Your sex, skin color and sexuality in 99% of the cases should be about as important as hair/eye color or what you ate for lunch yesterday. Its boring, if it actually elevates something in a meaningful way fine but most of the time its just a boring circle jerk. There's the line.
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I struggle to think of a setting where such a thing is explicitly incorrect. Why would the setting of Dragon Age be ‘the wrong one’ for touching on these concepts. Heck, if anything the pre DAV style was just as if not more appropriate considering how angled towards mature themes it is.
I swear, a game focuses on giving the player freedom to engage in a broad range of sexual and romantic relations and somehow even talking with a trans or non binary person or engaging in a relationship with them ‘doesn’t fit’?
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KiteGr
Member
Men like the porn version of lesbian sex. Aka hot female women on hot female women.So Americans (straight males) don't like watching lesbian sex? (Some females like watching it too)
In real life, lesbians look like 20 year old truckers with 40 years of experience.
cinnamonandgravy
Member
when it gets in the way of the game
otherwise it's mostly funny
like i wonder if we'll ever get a re5 remake due to the pearl-clutchers
otherwise it's mostly funny
like i wonder if we'll ever get a re5 remake due to the pearl-clutchers
jzbadblood
Neo Member
I thought this was satire at first, but then the rest of your post confirms you're just a piece of shit.
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Fahdis
Member
Fahdis
Member
Thats why...
Why are there 2 men in the bottom?
Bernardougf
Member
They identity as beautiful sexy leasbians so is all ok
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tkscz
Member
I would live in that lady's tits good lord.That's the thing. I had no issues with this tub of lard because, she fit the narrative:
Though Boarderlands have always been good with this style
Nickolaidas
Member
I would live in that lady's tits good lord.
Though Boarderlands have always been good with this style
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