• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Fusion energy breakthrough to be revealed on Tuesday by US Department of Energy

EviLore

Expansive Ellipses
Staff Member
https://www.reuters.com/business/en...reakthrough-fusion-energy-sources-2022-12-12/

WASHINGTON, Dec 12 (Reuters) - The U.S. Department of Energy on Tuesday will announce that scientists at a national lab have made a breakthrough on fusion, the process that powers the sun and stars that one day could provide a cheap source of electricity, three sources with knowledge of the matter said.

The scientists at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in California have achieved a net energy gain for the first time, in a fusion experiment using lasers, one of the people said.

While the results are a milestone in a scientific quest that has been developing since at least the 1930s, the ratio of energy going into the reaction at Livermore to getting energy out of it needs to be about 100 times bigger to create a process producing commercial amounts of electricity, one of the sources said.

The FT first reported the experiment.

Fusion works when nuclei of two atoms are subjected to extreme heat of 100 million degrees Celsius (180 million Fahrenheit) or higher leading them to fuse into a new larger atom, giving off enormous amounts of energy.

But the process consumes vast amounts of energy and the trick has been to make the process self-sustaining and get more energy out than goes in and to do so continuously instead of for brief moments.

If fusion is commercialized, which backers say could happen in a decade or more, it would have additional benefits including the generation of virtually carbon-free electricity which could help in the fight against climate change without the amounts of radioactive nuclear waste produced by today's fission reactors.

Running an electric power plant off fusion presents tough hurdles however, such as how to contain the heat economically and to keep lasers firing consistently. Other methods of fusion use magnets instead of lasers.

Energy Secretary Jennifer Granholm is slated to hold a media briefing on Tuesday at 10:00 a.m. EST (1500 GMT) on a "major scientific breakthrough."

The department has no information ahead of the briefing, a spokesperson said.

Lawrence Livermore focuses mainly on national security issues related to nuclear weapons and the fusion experiment could lead to testing safer testing of the nation's arsenal of such bombs.

But advances at the labs could also help efforts at companies that hope to develop power plants fired by fusion including Commonwealth Fusion Systems, Focused Energy and General Fusion.

Investors including Bill Gates, Jeff Bezos and John Doerr have poured money into companies building fusion. Private industry secured more than $2.8 billion last year, according to the Fusion Industry Association for a total of about $5 billion in recent years.
 

daffyduck

Member
back to the future 121 gigawatts GIF
 

RJMacready73

Simps for Amouranth
I've been following this shit for years, I'll believe it when I see it, we're always on the cusp of it and these reactors they build take absolute fucking years to design and build AND they're purely experimental not commercial, so we're still years from it actually being a viable alternative to what we currently use...
 

MarkMe2525

Gold Member
They are going to announce that we are 15 years away from viable fusion energy. The same thing they announce every 15 years.
 
Last edited:

pramod

Banned
Or other planets reach us.
Funny thats the first thought i had, if there were ever a time aliens decided to finally reveal themselves, this might be it. ie when stupid humans finally discover an unlimited energy source that can really fuck things up for the rest of the galaxy.
 
Last edited:
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this is all hype and smoke and mirrors. Evilore got taken by the idiot press.

NIF is nowhere near commercial viability and the net energy production is enough to boil a few gallons of water.

They claim to be net energy producers, but this is lies. They are above unity only when considering Q[plasma], not Q[total] when you factor in all energy inputs to the system. Sabine Hossenfelder estimated NIF to be around ~0.01. Nowhere near unity. And this doesn't take into consideration that you need to confine the plasma and turn it into electricity via steam generation, which is at best, ~50% efficiency.

ITER is the biggest scam. They literally claim it'll have a Q=10, so produce 10 times more than you put in. They literally claim in Congressional Hearings that they put in 50MWatts and get out 500. But, again this is Q[plasma], not Q[total]. They are lying to you and the politicians so they give them more funding.

Read the fine print and you see that ITER will consume 440MW total when fusing for the magnetic confinement and plasma, etc. It's going to produce 500MWatts in heat. Assuming 50% efficiency in electricity production, you're consuming 190MWatts more than you're producing.

NIF that's discussed here is even worse off than ITER. You're basically recapitulating a two stage thermonuclear explosion, except instead of using the X-rays to compress the secondary like in the Teller-Ulam design, you're just heating and compressing the 'secondary' itself with lasers. But, how do you efficiently contain this? Transfer energy to electricity? And refuel for continued operation? And this test was literally one pellet that supplied enough energy to heat a few dozen gallons of water, how to scale it up sequentially to commercial levels? I could go on and on and on.

Fusion research is important and I support it, but I do not support the politicization and dumbing down of science to mainstream bullshit levels to basically fool the populace by lying to them about how close and attainable these things we're being asked to subsidize really are.
 
Last edited:

NecrosaroIII

Ultimate DQ Fan
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this is all hype and smoke and mirrors. Evilore got taken by the idiot press.

NIF is nowhere near commercial viability and the net energy production is enough to boil a few gallons of water.
Why is this a bad thing? From my understanding all they're saying is "this sort of thing went from something we theoretically thought possible" to "something we did (on a small scale)". All the press report ls I've read have emphasized that this is something that is still a long ways out from being viable, but now we know for sure it can be done.

I'm fine with incremental progress.
 
Why is this a bad thing? From my understanding all they're saying is "this sort of thing went from something we theoretically thought possible" to "something we did (on a small scale)". All the press report ls I've read have emphasized that this is something that is still a long ways out from being viable, but now we know for sure it can be done.

I'm fine with incremental progress.

My point is they are being deceptive with what's being done. They are claiming:

The scientists at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in California have achieved a net energy gain for the first time, in a fusion experiment using lasers, one of the people said.

It's not a net energy gain when you look at total energy input verse output yield; what matters from a viability and commercialization standpoint.

This would be like running a company and saying you're operating at a "profit" because [revenues] exceed [material costs], but neglecting to include [labor], [rent], [insurance] etc costs. You are maybe more profitable than previously, or "on the road toward profitability", but you're really not profitable and would -- and should -- be sued by investors if you claimed that.

Is it an incremental step forward? Sure, absolutely, I agree with you. But that's not what these scientists and "science journalists" are wrongly claiming and unless you really known the field, you would have no clue. Which is sad to me.
 
Last edited:

GymWolf

Member
How many years before this thing is gonna actually be real and actually usable by the average joe in his house? 10? 20? 50?
 

phaedrus

Member
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this is all hype and smoke and mirrors. Evilore got taken by the idiot press.

NIF is nowhere near commercial viability and the net energy production is enough to boil a few gallons of water.

They claim to be net energy producers, but this is lies. They are above unity only when considering Q[plasma], not Q[total] when you factor in all energy inputs to the system. Sabine Hossenfelder estimated NIF to be around ~0.01. Nowhere near unity. And this doesn't take into consideration that you need to confine the plasma and turn it into electricity via steam generation, which is at best, ~50% efficiency.

ITER is the biggest scam. They literally claim it'll have a Q=10, so produce 10 times more than you put in. They literally claim in Congressional Hearings that they put in 50MWatts and get out 500. But, again this is Q[plasma], not Q[total]. They are lying to you and the politicians so they give them more funding.

Read the fine print and you see that ITER will consume 440MW total when fusing for the magnetic confinement and plasma, etc. It's going to produce 500MWatts in heat. Assuming 50% efficiency in electricity production, you're consuming 190MWatts more than you're producing.

NIF that's discussed here is even worse off than ITER. You're basically recapitulating a two stage thermonuclear explosion, except instead of using the X-rays to compress the secondary like in the Teller-Ulam design, you're just heating and compressing the 'secondary' itself with lasers. But, how do you efficiently contain this? Transfer energy to electricity? And refuel for continued operation? And this test was literally one pellet that supplied enough energy to heat a few dozen gallons of water, how to scale it up sequentially to commercial levels? I could go on and on and on.

Fusion research is important and I support it, but I do not support the politicization and dumbing down of science to mainstream bullshit levels to basically fool the populace by lying to them about how close and attainable these things we're being asked to subsidize really are.
Good Burger Reading GIF
 

jonnyp

Member
And nothing could go wrong...
MPN2f3w.gif

Fusion is much safer than fission. If you are not able to sustain the reaction, the reaction will fizzle out very quickly. No catastrophe.

The problem is to actually achieve net positive energy output and maintain stable fusion over a prolonged period of time.
 
While impressive if demonstrable again, hitting break-even is the first step on a long road of electricity going to people's homes. We might see it in our lifetimes, we might not.
 

EviLore

Expansive Ellipses
Staff Member
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this is all hype and smoke and mirrors. Evilore got taken by the idiot press.

NIF is nowhere near commercial viability and the net energy production is enough to boil a few gallons of water.

They claim to be net energy producers, but this is lies. They are above unity only when considering Q[plasma], not Q[total] when you factor in all energy inputs to the system. Sabine Hossenfelder estimated NIF to be around ~0.01. Nowhere near unity. And this doesn't take into consideration that you need to confine the plasma and turn it into electricity via steam generation, which is at best, ~50% efficiency.

ITER is the biggest scam. They literally claim it'll have a Q=10, so produce 10 times more than you put in. They literally claim in Congressional Hearings that they put in 50MWatts and get out 500. But, again this is Q[plasma], not Q[total]. They are lying to you and the politicians so they give them more funding.

Read the fine print and you see that ITER will consume 440MW total when fusing for the magnetic confinement and plasma, etc. It's going to produce 500MWatts in heat. Assuming 50% efficiency in electricity production, you're consuming 190MWatts more than you're producing.

NIF that's discussed here is even worse off than ITER. You're basically recapitulating a two stage thermonuclear explosion, except instead of using the X-rays to compress the secondary like in the Teller-Ulam design, you're just heating and compressing the 'secondary' itself with lasers. But, how do you efficiently contain this? Transfer energy to electricity? And refuel for continued operation? And this test was literally one pellet that supplied enough energy to heat a few dozen gallons of water, how to scale it up sequentially to commercial levels? I could go on and on and on.

Fusion research is important and I support it, but I do not support the politicization and dumbing down of science to mainstream bullshit levels to basically fool the populace by lying to them about how close and attainable these things we're being asked to subsidize really are.
None of what you claim is being said in the first place.
 

EviLore

Expansive Ellipses
Staff Member


National Ignition Facility achieves fusion ignition​



wwpUc3r.jpg



The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) and DOE’s National Nuclear Security Administration (NNSA) today announced the achievement of fusion ignition at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory (LLNL) — a major scientific breakthrough decades in the making that will pave the way for advancements in national defense and the future of clean power. On Dec. 5, a team at LLNL’s National Ignition Facility (NIF) conducted the first controlled fusion experiment in history to reach this milestone, also known as scientific energy breakeven, meaning it produced more energy from fusion than the laser energy used to drive it. This first-of-its-kind feat will provide unprecedented capability to support NNSA’s Stockpile Stewardship Program and will provide invaluable insights into the prospects of clean fusion energy, which would be a game-changer for efforts to achieve President Biden’s goal of a net-zero carbon economy.

“This is a landmark achievement for the researchers and staff at the National Ignition Facility who have dedicated their careers to seeing fusion ignition become a reality, and this milestone will undoubtedly spark even more discovery,” said U.S. Secretary of Energy Jennifer M. Granholm. “The Biden-Harris Administration is committed to supporting our world-class scientists — like the team at NIF — whose work will help us solve humanity’s most complex and pressing problems, like providing clean power to combat climate change and maintaining a nuclear deterrent without nuclear testing.”

“We have had a theoretical understanding of fusion for over a century, but the journey from knowing to doing can be long and arduous. Today’s milestone shows what we can do with perseverance,” said Dr. Arati Prabhakar, the President’s chief adviser for Science and Technology and director of the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy.

“Monday, December 5, 2022, was a historic day in science thanks to the incredible people at Livermore Lab and the National Ignition Facility. In making this breakthrough, they have opened a new chapter in NNSA’s Stockpile Stewardship Program,” NNSA Administrator Jill Hruby said. “I would like to thank the members of Congress who have supported the National Ignition Facility because their belief in the promise of visionary science has been critical for our mission. Our team from around the DOE national laboratories and our international partners have shown us the power of collaboration.”

“The pursuit of fusion ignition in the laboratory is one of the most significant scientific challenges ever tackled by humanity, and achieving it is a triumph of science, engineering, and most of all, people,” LLNL Director Dr. Kim Budil said. “Crossing this threshold is the vision that has driven 60 years of dedicated pursuit — a continual process of learning, building, expanding knowledge and capability, and then finding ways to overcome the new challenges that emerged. These are the problems that the U.S. national laboratories were created to solve.”

“This astonishing scientific advance puts us on the precipice of a future no longer reliant on fossil fuels but instead powered by new clean fusion energy,” U.S. Senate Majority Leader Charles Schumer (NY) said. “I commend Lawrence Livermore National Labs and its partners in our nation’s Inertial Confinement Fusion (ICF) program, including the University of Rochester’s Lab for Laser Energetics in New York, for achieving this breakthrough. Making this future clean energy world a reality will require our physicists, innovative workers and brightest minds at our DOE-funded institutions, including the Rochester Laser Lab, to double down on their cutting-edge work. That’s why I’m also proud to announce today that I’ve helped to secure the highest-ever authorization of over $624 million this year in the National Defense Authorization Act for the ICF program to build on this amazing breakthrough.”

“After more than a decade of scientific and technical innovation, I congratulate the team at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory and the National Ignition Facility for their historic accomplishment,” said U.S. Senator Dianne Feinstein (CA). “This is an exciting step in fusion and everyone at Lawrence Livermore and NIF should be proud of this milestone achievement.”

“This is an historic, innovative achievement that builds on the contributions of generations of Livermore scientists. Today, our nation stands on their collective shoulders. We still have a long way to go, but this is a critical step and I commend the U.S. Department of Energy and all who contributed toward this promising breakthrough, which could help fuel a brighter clean energy future for the United States and humanity,” said U.S. Senator Jack Reed (RI), the chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee.

“This monumental scientific breakthrough is a milestone for the future of clean energy,” said U.S. Senator Alex Padilla (CA). “While there is more work ahead to harness the potential of fusion energy, I am proud that California scientists continue to lead the way in developing clean energy technologies. I congratulate the scientists at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory for their dedication to a clean energy future, and I am committed to ensuring they have all of the tools and funding they need to continue this important work.”

“This is a very big deal. We can celebrate another performance record by the National Ignition Facility. This latest achievement is particularly remarkable because NIF used a less spherically symmetrical target than in the August 2021 experiment,” said U.S. Representative Zoe Lofgren (CA-19). “This significant advancement showcases the future possibilities for the commercialization of fusion energy. Congress and the Administration need to fully fund and properly implement the fusion research provisions in the recent CHIPS and Science Act and likely more. During World War II, we crafted the Manhattan Project for a timely result. The challenges facing the world today are even greater than at that time. We must double down and accelerate the research to explore new pathways for the clean, limitless energy that fusion promises.”

“I am thrilled that NIF — the United States’ most cutting-edge nuclear research facility — has achieved fusion ignition, potentially providing for a new clean and sustainable energy source in the future. This breakthrough will ensure the safety and reliability of our nuclear stockpile, open new frontiers in science, and enable progress toward new ways to power our homes and offices in future decades,” said U.S. Representative Eric Swalwell (CA-15). “I commend the scientists and researchers for their hard work and dedication that led to this monumental scientific achievement, and I will continue to push for robust funding for NIF to support advancements in fusion research.”

LLNL’s experiment surpassed the fusion threshold by delivering 2.05 megajoules (MJ) of energy to the target, resulting in 3.15 MJ of fusion energy output, demonstrating for the first time a most fundamental science basis for inertial fusion energy (IFE). Many advanced science and technology developments are still needed to achieve simple, affordable IFE to power homes and businesses, and DOE is currently restarting a broad-based, coordinated IFE program in the United States. Combined with private-sector investment, there is a lot of momentum to drive rapid progress toward fusion commercialization.

Fusion is the process by which two light nuclei combine to form a single heavier nucleus, releasing a large amount of energy. In the 1960s, a group of pioneering scientists at LLNL hypothesized that lasers could be used to induce fusion in a laboratory setting. Led by physicist John Nuckolls, who later served as LLNL director from 1988 to 1994, this revolutionary idea became inertial confinement fusion, kicking off more than 60 years of research and development in lasers, optics, diagnostics, target fabrication, computer modeling and simulation and experimental design.

To pursue this concept, LLNL built a series of increasingly powerful laser systems, leading to the creation of NIF, the world’s largest and most energetic laser system. NIF — located at LLNL in Livermore, California — is the size of a sports stadium and uses powerful laser beams to create temperatures and pressures like those in the cores of stars and giant planets, and inside exploding nuclear weapons.

Achieving ignition was made possible by dedication from LLNL employees as well as countless collaborators at DOE’s Los Alamos National Laboratory, Sandia National Laboratories and Nevada National Security Site; General Atomics; academic institutions, including the University of Rochester’s Laboratory for Laser Energetics, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, the University of California, Berkeley, and Princeton University; international partners, including the United Kingdom’s Atomic Weapons Establishment and the French Alternative Energies and Atomic Energy Commission; and stakeholders at DOE and NNSA and in Congress.
 
None of what you claim is being said in the first place.

Oh really?

From your posts, first one here:

The scientists at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in California have achieved a net energy gain for the first time, in a fusion experiment using lasers, one of the people said.

And today, quoting the DOE:

On Dec. 5, a team at LLNL’s National Ignition Facility (NIF) conducted the first controlled fusion experiment in history to reach this milestone, also known as scientific energy breakeven, meaning it produced more energy from fusion than the laser energy used to drive it

They are lying and it would appear you don't understand what's being discussed. Plain and simple. Q[plasma] does not equal break-even or over unity. "scientific energy breakeven" WTF is that?! What's the equation for that?!

Since you wish to dispute me, they claim a Q[plasma]=1.356. That's based on "3.15 MJ" of energy extracted verse... well, just how much energy was used for [containment] and [laser pumping] at NIF?

I'll wait....
 
Last edited:

AJUMP23

Parody of actual AJUMP23
Oh really?

From your posts, first one here:



And today, quoting the DOE:



They are lying and it would appear you don't understand what's being discussed. Plain and simple. Q[plasma] does not equal break-even or over unity. "scientific energy breakeven" WTF is that?! What's the equation for that?!

Since you wish to dispute me, they claim a Q[plasma]=1.356. That's based on "3.15 MJ" of energy extracted verse... well, just how much energy was used for [containment] and [laser pumping] at NIF?

I'll wait....
Did this guy get banned for questioning fusion?

Get this fission head outta here.
 
D

Deleted member 1159

Unconfirmed Member
Wake me up when you hit 200 million degrees you cowards

gatdamn sometimes I allow myself to hope humanity can engineer its way into abundance for my children’s sake
 
D

Deleted member 1159

Unconfirmed Member
ib4 the breakthrough is "Turns out Fusion is impossible, use coal. All Hail Joe Manchin"
Really off topic but this is the most based scene to come out of coal country:

 
Top Bottom