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Final Fantasy XVI and Next-Gen Gameplay
- Thread starter ProtoByte
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ProtoByte
Weeb Underling
This is a pretty dumb comment considering warping in the trailer was relegated to enemies and set points like vertices on ledges or some type of pole - just like the final game.
If you want a more functional example, see Insomniac's Spider-Man games where the world is chocked full with points you can zip to by having a good camera and auto-reticle system. On top of that, you can manually aim and web zip too. There is nothing precluding this design for a warp like Noctis'.
Because the consoles it was targeted for didn't have the juice to provide it. That has changed now.
In FF15, no. In Uncharted 4, Spider-Man, even fucking Prototype on the PS3, and many others, we have seen setpieves that touch on that to some degree.
You should be noticing a trend here. As I said before, nothing I'm talking about here is entirely unseen or unattainable. It's been done before to varying degrees. For the 3rd fucking time, this is why I put "next gen gameplay" in quotation marks.
God of War 3 does not offer that sense of scale in the actual moment-moment gameplay. The boss battles against the likes of Poseidon are all visual spectacle, zero mechanical complexity.
Spaceman292
Banned
That's a lot of text to say absolutely nothing. Were you on the writing staff for FF13?
ProtoByte
Weeb Underling
It's easy to be reductive, but the animation systems actually add a lot of mechanical and strategic dynamism to combat encounters. The dodge mechanic introduces timing and enemy pushback challenges that a lot of games can't manage without being and/or feeling totally cheap. Pushing enemies up against walls has its own animation thay looks and feels smooth, transitions you to a state where you can kill an enemy a lot faster without direct pushback, all while possibly opens you up to attacks from other enemy characters in your surroundings.
The fact that heavies can drag you out from under cover forces the player to stay on the move, or keep the pressure on in defense. I could list and explain more, but you get the idea.
No, this game does not need it.
I will, again, quote my own OP:
Spaceman292
Banned
You're still just talking about animations rather than actual game play. The animations are amazing, but they don't add 'mechanical and strategic dynamism to combat encounters' or whatever. The gameplay would be the same even if Ellie was just t-posing the whole time.
hyperbertha
Member
There is no way to have the depth of options within the small time frames that action games provide. No modern action game has provided the engagement that persona 5 has.
And are you seriously judging quality based on popularity? The more niche something is, the higher the quality tends to be. My muscle memory is well honed from years of playing. Dmc esque combat does not challenge me in any meaningful way. It's always mindless dodging and pressing the a button until all enemies are dead. Mindless action is outdated.
DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
OP. You don't stand a chance questioning anything to do with this game. There's a large fanbase that has already decided the games amazing without ever playing it and will argue to the teether that it is completely a traditional final fantasy RPG when it looks like DMC meets Azuras wrath with light rpg elements to many people that grew up with the franchise.
Does that mean it's going to be bad, nope. Does that mean it's not got a chance of being amazing! Hell no. But the section of people who have decided that this game is amazing, including some of the so called journalists has me cautious on if any of the messaging near launch will actually be relevant.
I'm hoping it's amazing but I'm going to wait for the dust to settle.
If it stays as 30fps traversal and 60 fps combat...I don't care what is said about it...I'm waiting for PC version.
Just be careful when saying it doesn't look like a traditional final fantasy.
Does that mean it's going to be bad, nope. Does that mean it's not got a chance of being amazing! Hell no. But the section of people who have decided that this game is amazing, including some of the so called journalists has me cautious on if any of the messaging near launch will actually be relevant.
I'm hoping it's amazing but I'm going to wait for the dust to settle.
If it stays as 30fps traversal and 60 fps combat...I don't care what is said about it...I'm waiting for PC version.
Just be careful when saying it doesn't look like a traditional final fantasy.
DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
Yay, more none to borderline final fantasy fans talking about how it's going to be in their top 5 this year...and a hype man saying its a character action game.... and game of the year before playing the finished game....classic kinda funny hype.
These are people who are going to review this game and have already decided ita their game of the year from playing previews....from a playstation podcast....its god of war ragnarok all over again.
GymWolf
Member
Agree to disagree, i played that game 2 times on grounded for an amount of more than 50 hours and it was even my goty for that year, but none of what you say is new or nextgen, good animations are just that, good animations.
Guilty_AI
Member
Turn based is meant to emulate board games. It was not designed solely to deal with hardware limitations.
And no, you cannot combine the depth of turn based combat with action based one just like that. They live under very different paradigms. You cannot make real-time combat chess and still call it chess.
Larxia
Member
geary
Member
And why do you think that happened? For some is clear why, for others not so much.
ProtoByte
Weeb Underling
Fair enough. I'll only make 2 more points, not to persuade you, but to justify my statements.
1. I agree that it's not new. I do think it's a cut above the rest, which is why, again, I use "next gen" in quotes throughout the whole thread.
2. To me, animations and animation quality do and should have a material impact on gameplay. In the mechanical sense, they should alter the hitboxes, appropriately respond to collision, and match the mechanical risk-reward nature of a given combat manuver. In a game feel sense, I think it's pretty obvious why animations are important.
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
This is why I disagree about your entire premise for this thread, for me TLOU is not "next gen" or "cut above all else" not even close.
Feel Like I'm On 42
Member
Wha what waiittt a second ...it has dynamic framerate? 30 fps traversal > 60 fps combat? Where did you hear that? Can't be true .
Feel Like I'm On 42
Member
Why not? What 3rd person games have done what lou2 has and done better?
Just the old build.
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
For me I enjoyed games like RE4 and Vanquish waaaaaaaay more I ever did with TLOU series, they are just more enjoyable game.
If TLOU is you guys idea moving gameplay forward, I dont want it.
ProtoByte
Weeb Underling
Yeah, I know you've got a stick up your ass about that.
Thing is, you're allowed to have your opinion, and I'm allowed not to care. I'm not going to get into an argument about an objective metric like animation quality. Much less am I going to get into an argument about it when it's a reference to one game that is miniscule to the rest of the OP and discussion in this thread.
Guilty_AI
Member
Animation quality isn't gameplay.
Also, if said animation can run perfectly fine in last gen hardware, it isn't next-gen.
ProtoByte
Weeb Underling
Literally on the same page.
Guilty_AI
Member
There are a lot of things in that post about the impact of animation on gameplay that are questionable, but fine, whatever.
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
We are talking about game with highly fast paced combat compare to stealth based shooter. They are VASTlY different game from each other, in fast action combat like FFXVI, precision and responsiveness is more important than detail animation while game like TLOU is slower paced and is not trying be over the top, so it has more realistic animation.
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ProtoByte
Weeb Underling
What you seem not to be getting it is that I'm not saying this game, or any FF should change to fit into a TLOU mold. TLOU is an example of what I think the foundations of higher tier combat are - applied in the context of a grounded action/adventure TPS; but an example nonetheless. You don't even have to agree that it's the best (I notice you think that RE4 and Vanquish more enjoyable) but you cannot sit there and say that the combat doesn't take level design, positioning, spacing, and enemy design into account.
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
What make you think FFXVI doesn’t take enemy design in to account? Not only we have different type of enemies both monsters and humans but also in FFXVI you can’t launch every enemies to do air combo based on their size and weight.
I don’t know maybe your issue with FFXVI or DMC combat and gameplay because they are less grounded but that’s actually positive for me.
KXVXII9X
Member
I'm someone who is wanting to buy a PS5 solely for Final Fantasy XVI and I agree with you.
You aren't saying FFXVI should have TLOU Part 2 gameplay. You are highlighting how seamless and dynamic it is. People severely underestimate the gameplay of that game and I will die on that hill. After playing Zelda TotK, I am wanting more dynamic gameplay.
With that said, I still think I would have tons of fun with FFXVI and the combat seems to be in the best hands possible. I still think it could looks more next gen, but it does have some impressive things going for it as it seamlessly goes from one setpiece to another. Especially with the Eikon battles that have you switching genres like Nier Automata.
I will have to go in with the expectations that it isn't trying to be that kind of gameplay. That is okay. For now. I do hope the next FF title will have more of what you wrote. With that said, this looks like the best FF title by a landslide.
DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
In these previews the traversal was 30 fps and the combat was 60...there were a lot of performance issues.
Luckily some influencers who can actually do a job asked square and they committed to it being 60 fps across traversal and combat by launch.
Let's see.
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
have you played Dragons Dogma? with 2nd game coming out maybe that exactly the game you are looking for.
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Kumomeme
Member
more like your personal preferences of what "next gen gameplay" is
which is fine by me honestly, since everyone has their own taste. as long there is no effort of trying to shove the view toward others.
ProtoByte
Weeb Underling
Dragon's Dogma 2 looks fine in terms of visuals, but it doesn't look much like they've really broadened or deepened the scope of combat.
Calling down a meteor shower should bust up the environment big time. The best example of destruction we got was the breaking of a wooden bridge not 20 feet long.
Did you see anything there that looked mechanically ambitious?
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
I mean you said wanted more interacting between the player and enemies and in Dragon Dogma you literally can climb on big enemies while fighting them.
Except no one know what exactly you mean by "ambitious". I mean you want destructible environments you can play Red Faction: Guerrilla.
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Kumomeme
Member
what i see is someone has his own personal 'ideal preferences' over certain type of gameplay.
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
I mean let’s look at in practical way, according to him….
Now in Dragons Dogma you have other characters also fighting using spells and each those spells also causing destruction in environments, now think about all them fighting together at once. It becomes visuals mess of derby and destruction everywhere.
His idea seems exciting on paper but in reality it’s not practical or fun this is why you don’t see most devs do this often. Remember Metal Gear Rising before Platinum Games got involved? The concept was you can partially cut anything and everything, it sounds cool with cool tech but devs were having hard time actually making proper game around that concept because players end up cutting everything and destroying the level design.
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Days like these...
Have a Blessed Day
I'm sure op asked ChatGPT for preemptive damage control of this games combat and this is what it spit out.
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Kumomeme
Member
yep. like my first reply on this post previously, his idea also based on a vertical slice gameplay of non existance version of video game. i get there is people expecting for some crazy innovative unthinkable of novel idea gameplay design formula(which is he also doesnt has an idea of what it is could be). but in the end practical matters. pretty sure developers would like become very very ambitious but in the end the final build they released is something resulted from countless of testing and reasoning of game design. im not suprise one of reason why devs ditched lot of stuff in FFXV reveal trailer is due to they cant prepare proper gameplay element to accomodate the system. for example that noctics warp around airship. to do that they need tons of high vertical area and tons of flying enemy. but in the end the game didnt have those things. open world just flat barren. Insomnia remain locked hidden in game. so not suprise they ditched it rather than put something half assed(the game end up half assed anyway). pretty sure they tried lot of things especially during pre production phase. in the end balance need to be achieved. there is no all rounder gameplay design that excel of everything and everything has a cost to develop for. there always pro and cons and there is advantages of focusing on certain aspect only. for FF16 it is clear they aimed for DMC-ish flashy sword combat fight. why there is people suddenly expected for a stealth gameplay lol? by this logic we should also ask for 3rd person shooter element too.
what funny is, environmental destruction is actually existed, as i timestamped the state of play video on my first reply previously.
we actually already at a period where gameplay design already at diminished return phase, atleast since ps360 days. heck, the element destruction also already existed in action combat of The Last Story on Wii. on a fuc*kin Wii! nothing new or 'next gen' much at this point already. at this point, nothing much 'new' can be invented anymore. we not at PS1-PS2 era, anymore where people first time encounter 3D. so anything we got today just a fruit of game design or artistic choice based on developers direction. at most, things would happen in bigger scale thats all. advancement of fast storage or stronger CPU wont change core gameplay much anymore aside increase in scale. in these past 2 decade we only got cool stuff like Nemesis system or the warp tech on Rachet and Clank but core gameplay pretty much unchanged. even TLOU2 combat also just same stuff we already seen. the differences is the execution. it even on PS4, so i wont count that as 'next generation either'. same goes to BOTW gameplay for example. i dare to say any core idea of gameplay can be run on any device, even smartphone today with exception of scale numbers. we progressed that much.
to be fair from FF16 gameplay we already see tons of stuff that take advantages of newest console hardware. those fast movement gameplay set piece with large scale against large enemy with tons of object flying around obviously leverage the stronger CPU and faster storage.
and most importantly, the game not even released yet to draw full conclusion.
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Just watched Maxmillian's review/preview. I was sold already, now I am pretty hyped and excited to play it. Really sounds like a great future step for the franchise. I still miss turn based, but the FF7 remake was a nice mix. Diablo 4 and FFXVI, what a great month for gaming. Expecting a lot from Yoshi and this game and a return to form. I hated 15 and the setting, so I didn't give it much of a chance. I think since FFX my interest dropped a bit with this franchise (except for online)
nikolino840
Member
Q: When selecting the "Performance First" mode in this demo, some places still seem to be a bit stuttering, will these areas be corrected before release? In addition, some players have legend that the game will use 30FPS when exploring the map, and then adjust it to 60FPS when entering the battle, is there really such a system design?
A: Regarding the problem of stuttering, because the game is really about to be released, I am afraid that it will be difficult for us to adjust it before the release, but it is not impossible to fix it through updates in the future. As for the system, we are not designed to 30FPS when exploring and 60FPS when fighting, although the performance priority mode will make the upper limit of FPS to 60FPS, but the actual FPS still depends on the current situation.
In response to the claim that FPS is relatively high in battle, there is a possibility that we do spend more time adjusting the battle, so the optimization of this part may be better; Another possibility is that we will also take some tricks when fighting, for example, during the battle, people will not look carefully at the background, light and shadow changes, and only focus on the characters, so it will feel that the FPS seems to become relatively high.
gnn.gamer.com.tw
A: Regarding the problem of stuttering, because the game is really about to be released, I am afraid that it will be difficult for us to adjust it before the release, but it is not impossible to fix it through updates in the future. As for the system, we are not designed to 30FPS when exploring and 60FPS when fighting, although the performance priority mode will make the upper limit of FPS to 60FPS, but the actual FPS still depends on the current situation.
In response to the claim that FPS is relatively high in battle, there is a possibility that we do spend more time adjusting the battle, so the optimization of this part may be better; Another possibility is that we will also take some tricks when fighting, for example, during the battle, people will not look carefully at the background, light and shadow changes, and only focus on the characters, so it will feel that the FPS seems to become relatively high.
《FF XVI》高井總監談對「成人取向」故事的堅持 強調不會因異議而更改遊戲內容
SQUARE ENIX 旗下代表性 RPG《FINAL FANTASY》系列最新作《FINAL FANTASY XVI》（以下簡稱《FF 16》）將在 2023 年 6 月 22 日推出，本次巴哈姆特受到 Sony Interactive Entertainment（SIE）邀請，前往韓國首爾實機試玩最新的媒體體驗版，並訪問到本作的主要遊戲總監高井浩與在地化總監 Michael-Christopher Koji Fox，解答玩家們對於本作的疑惑。 《FINAL FANTASY XVI》的
gnn.gamer.com.tw
Dr. Claus
Banned
Final Fantasy hasn't been turnbased longer than it ever was turnbased. You need to move on and stop crying about it not being turnbased.
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
I dont mind FF goes for more action combat as long as they sill make games like Octopath, I would be sad if SE stopes making turn based all together.
ProtoByte
Weeb Underling
So, there are reports about lagging pre-order numbers compared to FF15 and FF7 Remake, even accounting for exclusivity (and I don't think that's accounting for much), and people have already started taking that, missing for the "accounting for exclusivity" and the entire FF7 Remake half of the point, and misdiagnosing the problem here within an hour.
Some, for obvious platform fanboy reasons, blame exclusivity on PlayStation, others bizarrely attribute it to not being turn based, and others attribute it to FF15 in particular being a disappointment.
I said before that the hype was muted, and I'm now fully vindicated in that. Far be it from to also say I'm totally vindicated in the why, but I maintain that what the game is displaying isn't blowing anyone away.
Some, for obvious platform fanboy reasons, blame exclusivity on PlayStation, others bizarrely attribute it to not being turn based, and others attribute it to FF15 in particular being a disappointment.
I said before that the hype was muted, and I'm now fully vindicated in that. Far be it from to also say I'm totally vindicated in the why, but I maintain that what the game is displaying isn't blowing anyone away.
Pelao
Member
I think the only mainline single player Final Fantasy games I didn't like, to the point that I didn't even finish them, were II and XIII, so I'm confident I'll enjoy XVI as well. I've liked everything I've seen.
Also, I guess I'm one of the minority that never had a problem with XV. In fact, I plan to replay it this week in anticipation of XVI.
Also, I guess I'm one of the minority that never had a problem with XV. In fact, I plan to replay it this week in anticipation of XVI.
Vognerful
Member
Vognerful
Member
I wasn't following closely on how what is in the new FF, but I saw someone posting something and I found it suspicious to be true:
Is this true?
Vognerful
Member
IS the PC version worth it? I played it long ago on xbox but I got bored really after a couple of hours.
Abriael_GN
RSI Employee of the Year
Yeah, we're totally going to believe the vague "report" from a former journalist who's totally not trying too hard to draw attention to his thin patreon about how many pre-orders a game has
According to this dude, Square Enix talked about the release of Final Fantasy VII Rebirth because of FFXVI's (alleged) pre-order situation and totally not because it's been a year from its reveal and it may have naturally been high time to say something.
If someone saying something on the internet without a shred of evidence or even logic makes you feel "fully vindicated" it's very easy to make you happy. Good for you!
I played a few hours of it, and it certainly blew me away. Way more than any turn-based game Square Enix made in the past several years as a matter of fact. And I love turn-based games (without being a mindless fanatic about a game mechanic, which is extremely irrational).
So here's one, which makes your statement factually wrong.
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ChorizoPicozo
Member
this is a huge factor.
remember that 15 was built-up from Versus XIII As the only hope after the shitshow that was the lighting saga.
People are skeptical. and FF has had pretty lackluster story-telling for a long time now.....this is why, the most important thing for FF16 is to have a pretty mind blowing story; that feel well made and COMPLETE.
In terms of gameplay....if welk executed we could see new fans giving this franchise a chance for the first time. (God of war 2018)
Madflavor
Member
Nope. Sounds like good ol' fashion confirmation bias rearing it's ugly head here.
Let me set the record straight. The Final Fantasy Franchise's sales have stagnated over the years for a number of reasons. First is because it's hard to maintain momentum when there's 6-7 years between your last mainline entry. Second because from 2010 onward, the quality of the franchise noticeably dropped, and has only recently been recovering and gotten better. Third, JRPGs are more niche in the modern era than they used to be. All three of these reasons combined have made a contribution to FFXVI's lack of hype on the same scale as say other big IPs.
But let's go back three years and talk viewership and interest.
FFXVI struggled to get high trailer views since it was first revealed back in 2020. FFVII:R on the other hand, had quadruple the amount of views when it was revealed. FFVII:R was the most hotly requested remake for a game that was legendary amongst the gaming community. Yet despite all of this, it only sold 5 million in 3 months, and we haven't heard a thing since. Developers and Publishers almost never shy away from flexing their commercial sales muscles if a game is selling well. Their silence on FFVII:R's sales these past 3 years has been deafening, and tells you all you need to know. If FFVII:R didn't do exceptionally well with sales, it was clear XVI was going to have an uphill battle. None of this is surprising when you look at Final Fantasy over the past decade or so. FFXIII was very divisive and it's sequels ate up the entire 7th gen. FFXIV 1.0 was an unbelievable disaster. And FFXV, while better received than FFXIII, didn't live up to the hype and was an uneven mess. FFXVI was always going to be a game that would rely more on great reviews and word of mouth in order to generate good long term sales.
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sigmaZ
Member
I think the ideal system going forward needs to maintain some of the more strategic elements even if it is essentially an ARPG. I would like to see a battle system where you string basic attacks using button combos ala the Soul Caliber series and then have an ATB gauge like in the ff7 remake that let's you commit more strategic attacks and magic. I think FF16 will be fine but I have my doubts to as how dynamic it will feel. My biggest concern is how spongey enemies will be and how that will play out over the course of the campaign. I don't want to be constantly stuck fighting simple enemies that take a million hits. These days there's a lot of games I set to easy just because minor enemies are so spongey.
ChorizoPicozo
Member
this is an interesting aspect. i forget how FF was a "menu selection game" some people played it for the story alone. and "action" games were not their thing.
but one a franchise has failed in one way or another so consistently over the years the only thing to hope is a revulsive for the entire franchise.
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