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[adamsapple]

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Frame generation has proven to be a genuinely useful technology for PC users - and AMD's FSR3 is now mature enough to be deployed on the current generation consoles. Immortals of Aveum is the first game to feature it and Rich has gone in depth on this one: image quality tests, frame-rate analysis, latency measurements and much, much more.

00:00 Introduction
01:38 Frame Generation: How Does It Work?
02:21 Xbox Series X FSR3 Performance Analysis
03:13 PlayStation 5 FSR3 Performance Analysis
04:00 Xbox Series S: Huge Cuts But Better Perf Than X?
05:36 Latency Analysis: Does Frame-Gen Hurt Input Lag?
09:14 Generated Frames: Image Quality Discussion
11:03 VRR Works! V-Sync On/Off Also Available
13:54 Summary: Is Frame-Gen Good For Consoles?

 

[adamsapple]

General:
- "Promise has been delivered" in terms of offering a frame rate boost
- All new consoles supported, even Series S
- Works by generating 2 frames and sandwiching a 3rd, interpolated, frame in between

Basic Improvements:
- 72.3% boost in performance output in one stress cut-scene
- Margin of error differences between PS5/SX in the same above scene
- In tested scene, PS5 had slightly higher average fps with frame-gen off but SX has higher performance with frame-gen on.
- Series S has a lot of 'savage visual cutbacks' but runs a lot faster than the others
- Series S has highest frame-gen uplift of the 3 consoles, closest to 120fps

Latency:
- Complicated to accurately gauge this because not all consoles support KB+M
- Series S is slightly faster in latency compared to SX both frame-gen on/off
- Frame-gen adds 8ms to SX and 15ms to SS latency (Series S is still faster despite a bigger latency hit on frame gen, on average)

Interpolation Quality:
- The faster movement, the less accurate interpolation becomes in general
- Magic effects can make the interpolated frames easier to see
- The results are generally OK and artifacts only persist for a very short time
- Transparent HUD and 2D elements still run at 'half-rate' (i-e not effected by frame-gen)
- The game has traversal stutter where the drop to performance is more exaggerated in frame-gen
- VRR On is the best way to experience the game
- The game has V-Sync on/off options
- Frame times are broadly consistent both On/Off
- Frame pacing is good, compared to PC testing, here.

Issues:
- In some scenes, camera cuts can cause a momentary frame-pause, this issue is not seen on PS5
- This pausing issue is on both Xbox consoles and can happen when frame-gen is enabled
- The games FSR up-scaling is still bad in terms of image quality. No improvements there

 

[analog_future]

Sounds very impressive. Could be a bit of a gamechanger in the years to come.

 

[LiquidMetal14]

Great to see these technologies expanding to consoles.

 

[Gaiff]

Those latency numbers are insane.

Why is a shooting game targeting 60fps plagued with 100 ms+ of latency? FSR makes things slightly worse taking the SS from around 102 ms to 117 ms and the SX from 131 to 139 ms. The added latency isn’t the problem. Why the fuck is it so high to begin with?

 

[amigastar]

More performance for free is always good.

 

[Zathalus]

Those latency numbers are insane.

Why is a shooting game targeting 60fps plagued with 100 ms+ of latency? FSR makes things slightly worse taking the SS from around 102 ms to 117 ms and the SX from 131 to 139 ms. The added latency isn’t the problem. Why the fuck is it so high to begin with?

100ms for a game at 60fps isn't that terrible, using the same Nvidia LDAT DF measured over 90ms for COD on PC. The Series X number is so bad because the game is quite a bit under 60fps.

PC does have the advantage of reflex though, which drastically lowers latency.

 

[lh032]

this is a good thing, this type of tech is going to benefit consoles even further especially next gen.

 

[Fbh]

After trying this on Immortals on Ps5 I hope it comes to most games moving forward.
It doesn't fix the core issues with the game (horrible writing, meh visuals and gameplay) but it feels a lot better to play now. The fights are at least somewhat enjoyable now that it doesn't feel like the FPS tanks whenever a couple of enemies show up.

It might not be as good as native frames, but it sures beats 30fps or frames jumping all over the place from 25-60fps.
Would be amazing is Capcom could implement this on Dragons Dogma 2 on console.

 

[MikeM]

This has so much potential if they do it right. That, plus I wonder if PSSR will have its own at the system level as I would love to break the 60fps barrier on games that are locked.

Hell- bring in PC settings and it may sway me back to console full time.

 

[Trogdor1123]

if the Sony version actual appears in the pro, would that further increase the results?

 

[winjer]

Those latency numbers are insane.

Why is a shooting game targeting 60fps plagued with 100 ms+ of latency? FSR makes things slightly worse taking the SS from around 102 ms to 117 ms and the SX from 131 to 139 ms. The added latency isn’t the problem. Why the fuck is it so high to begin with?

They are normal for this game. Only when enabling AntiLag+, is latency significantly lower than consoles.

 

[Darsxx82]

Frame Generation is great, ideally AMD would improve FSR3. Still, with the problem of artifacts in the image, the technology clearly works. Highlights:

1- The base resolution of PS5 and XSX went up to 930p. That's why the performance is noticeably worse than what both versions showed at launch where the base resolution was 720p an d a IQ miserable..

2- XSS comes in handy with this technology. the performance is quite a bit better than on XSX and PS5 and it makes me wonder why it hasn't been used to improve the graphics or the IQ itself by raising the base resolution. It's curious the subject here.... With FrameGen it will be more advisable to play XSS at 120fps mode than at 30fps mode

 

[adamsapple]

if the Sony version actual appears in the pro, would that further increase the results?

Sony's version (from what I've read) is about visual up-scaling, not performance increases.

 

[amigastar]

They are normal for this game. Only when enabling AntiLag+, is latency significantly lower than consoles.

Yep, people complain about Latency but they forget that Frame Generation has at least the same amount of Latency in specific settings than native, most times even better.

 

[winjer]

Yep, people complain about Latency but they forget that Frame Generation has at least the same amount of Latency in specific settings than native, most times even better.

That is incorrect. All other things being equal, the case with FG enable will always have higher latency.
But if properly implemented and using tech like Antilag and Reflex, it can remain at acceptable levels.

 

[amigastar]

That is incorrect. All other things being equal, the case with FG enable will always have higher latency.
But if properly implemented and using tech like Antilag and Reflex, it can remain at acceptable levels.

yeah, but what about this? That was what i was referring to.

 

[winjer]

yeah, but what about this?

All of them have higher latency when frame gen on. What is your point?

 

[amigastar]

All of them have higher latency when frame gen on. What is your point?

My point is that native has 63.5ms and Frame Gen has 62.6 in the worst case. So native is bigger when it comes to latency.

 

[Lysandros]

Is 'frame pausing' the new term for freezing? Are the IQ differences still there?

 

[adamsapple]

Is 'frame pausing' the new term for freezing? Are the IQ differences still there?

It's literally frame pauses during camera cuts in some cut-scenes, you can call it freezing, but these aren't performance drops. The game play frame rate is not effected and they did not talk about IQ differences other than the poor FSR2 upscaling in the game in general.

 

[winjer]

My point is that native has 63.5ms and Frame Gen has 62.6 in the worst case. So native is bigger when it comes to latency.

Native is full resolution. So the frame rate is lower, thus, the frame time is higher.
Compare "DLSS Quality no FG" vs "DLSS Quality with FG", and you can clearly see that FG has higher latency. 47ns vs 62.7ns

 

[Trogdor1123]

Sony's version (from what I've read) is about visual up-scaling, not performance increases.

Ahh I see, my bad.

 

[Skifi28]

Weren't DF saying it wasn't possible on consoles based on some Frankenstein PC they built?

 

[Anchovie123]

Many of Sonys first party games have unlocked 120hz vrr modes that run around 70-80fps. frame gen for these games would be a huge benefit.

 

[tooevil]

Now bring this taste FSR 3 with frame generation to Final Fantasy 16.

 

[CrustyBritches]

Gotta give AMD credit here. Now they just need to improve on FSR upscaling quality.

 

[Lagspike_exe]

Now bring this taste FSR 3 with frame generation to Final Fantasy 16.

FF XVI performance mode fluctuates at 40 FPS, where FG isn't ideal. 60 FPS+ works well.

 

[LordCBH]

I’m not going to pretend I even remotely understand how this works. I will just say it’s impressive as fuck.

 

[rickybooby87]

67% vs 72% is not bad, considering the XSX has a theoretical compute advantage/higher CU count (narrow vs. wide).

 

[Ivan]

I remember DF saying this would be IMPOSSIBLE on consoles because it's not free and it just won't work, highly unlikely and all that. Can't wait to see sony's solution on PS5 Pro.

 

[Thief1987]

FF XVI performance mode fluctuates at 40 FPS

So like the game in the video.

 

[Portugeezer]

I remember DF saying this would be IMPOSSIBLE on consoles because it's not free and it just won't work, highly unlikely and all that. Can't wait to see sony's solution on PS5 Pro.

I'm gonna need some context. Do you have a link?

 

[Zathalus]

Weren't DF saying it wasn't possible on consoles based on some Frankenstein PC they built?

I remember DF saying this would be IMPOSSIBLE on consoles because it's not free and it just won't work, highly unlikely and all that. Can't wait to see sony's solution on PS5 Pro.

- If VRR won't work with FSR3 it would be terrible on console (since this video it was fixed).
- Using FSR3 to take 30 to 60 would be terrible (true). As Richard says, you need a minimum of 40 at least (true as well).
- You would need less demanding games to lock to 120 with FSR3.
- They think its doable on Immortals, but a locked 120 is probably not possible (true again).

They key takeaway is that they were focused on 60/120 and not considering variable framerates as back then FSR3 simply didn't work with VRR.

 

[Lysandros]

67% vs 72% is not bad, considering the XSX has a theoretical compute advantage/higher CU count (narrow vs. wide).

The video didn't show a side by side testing the exact same section and those percentages don't take drops to 0 FPS on XSX into account. There were differences in IQ settings favoring PS5 previously not mentioned here. There is simply no healthy data to jump into such conclusions.

 

[funking giblet]

67% vs 72% is not bad, considering the XSX has a theoretical compute advantage/higher CU count (narrow vs. wide).

We don't need to keep doing this, they came out 4 years ago nearly. We know it's easier to optimize for PS5, anyone who codes knew this too.

 

[Tsaki]

Ahh I see, my bad.

Not related to frame generation directly, but I don't see why FPS couldn't increase. On PS5 Pro, theoretically, they could lower the base resolution and then using PSSR upscale the image, and if the AI upscaling is good enough, could get the same image quality as previously but now with more GPU headroom to spare (since they lowered the base resolution). That would increase the FPS in compute bound scenarios. This doesn't even take into account that the Pro would have a bigger GPU anyway.

 

[damidu]

whats with the hud elements, menu items going artifacts crazy on framegen.
its the same on dlss framegen.
and happening with multiple games too.

 

[The ninja farmer]

Is this the same tech as used in robocop ? I noticed an amd frame gen tech toggle in the ps5 version

Doesn’t help with the steel mill section of the game though . As outdoors still judders with what looks like uneven or dropped frames (don’t even think drs kicks in either).

 

[Darsxx82]

Is this the same tech as used in robocop ? I noticed an amd frame gen tech toggle in the ps5 version

Doesn’t help with the steel mill section of the game though . As outdoors still judders with what looks like uneven or dropped frames (don’t even think drs kicks in either).

No, in Robocop the Frame gen option is an error that should not be in the menu of the console versions according to the Studio itself. In fact, if you activate the option it has no effect.

Maybe they are in testing and a future patch will activate it. But right now the Frame Gen option in Robocop does not work.

 

[intbal]

Elden Ring seems like an ideal candidate for this.

 

[Fafalada]

100ms for a game at 60fps isn't that terrible

It's literally in the 30fps territory of latencies, so it's not good in any sense of the word either.

PC does have the advantage of reflex though, which drastically lowers latency.

Reflex (the SDK) is just PC specific workarounds for API/driver stack bottlenecks. Consoles give explicit control over display-chain, so all the same optimizations are possible(or unnecessary in some cases) - but it is noteworthy the profiling tools NVidia provides (inc. in hardware) are definitely helpful to identify what's going easier.

67% vs 72% is not bad, considering the XSX has a theoretical compute advantage/higher CU count (narrow vs. wide).

Since the question is how fast shaders generating frames run, answering it with relative delta is impossible without knowing specifics of GPU/CPU loads in those scenarios. This goes for S comparisons too - also the resolution in any given moment will directly correlate to time spend on synthesized frames.

 

[Physiognomonics]

The video didn't show a side by side testing the exact same section and those percentages don't take drops to 0 FPS on XSX into account. There were differences in IQ settings favoring PS5 previously not mentioned here. There is simply no healthy data to jump into such conclusions.

Why is the XSX dropping down to 0% and not the PS5 still after all those patches? How do DF explain this one? I mean is it during cutscenes where they usually stream data in? Shouldn't it be simple to at least having a theory on the matter?

 

[SABRE220]

They are normal for this game. Only when enabling AntiLag+, is latency significantly lower than consoles.

This does make me wonder, why dont the console makers utilize antilag/reflex variants for the consoles? Its clearly a massive improvement.

 

[winjer]

This does make me wonder, why dont the console makers utilize antilag/reflex variants for the consoles? Its clearly a massive improvement.

Reflex is Nvidia only.
Antilag is driver based, so it only works on AMD software. Consoles have their own drivers, developed by Sony and Microsoft respectively to their consoles.
Antilag 2 is integrated with games, but is still in early beta. AMD does plan to release an SDK soon. But there is no word on if it will work on consoles.
Antilag also seems to require a driver side integration, so this may become an issue for consoles.

Still, most of what these techs do is just rearrange the rendering pipeline, as reduce stalls.
Nvidia explains in this video, how they did that with Reflex.
Devs on console can do similar things, while not using the nvidia SDK.

 

[Lysandros]

Why is the XSX dropping down to 0% and not the PS5 still after all those patches? How do DF explain this one? I mean is it during cutscenes where they usually stream data in? Shouldn't it be simple to at least having a theory on the matter?

There was also a recurrent argument of cut-scenes being purely GPU bound (with CPU bound player input/game logic taken out of the equation) but here we are. Regular severe drops on XSX while PS5 remains stable comparatively. Like stated in the video, the current frame generation implementation is actually less problematic/more stable on PS5 as far as this comparisons at least.

 

[Physiognomonics]

There was also a recurrent argument of cut-scenes being purely GPU bound (with CPU bound player input/game logic taken out of the equation) but here we are. Regular severe drops on XSX while PS5 remains stable comparatively. Like stated in the video, the current frame generation implementation is actually less problematic/more stable on PS5 as far as this comparisons at least.

Usually they are using cutscenes to load the data of the next scene!

 

[Lysandros]

Usually they are using cutscenes to load the data of the next scene!

I know that was sometimes the case for the previous generation but is this still required with order of magnitude faster storage access/streaming? For the whole cutscene?

 

[Thief1987]

Elden Ring seems like an ideal candidate for this.

lol fromsoftware will make it run worse with frame gen than without it

 

[adamsapple]

Why is the XSX dropping down to 0% and not the PS5 still after all those patches? How do DF explain this one? I mean is it during cutscenes where they usually stream data in? Shouldn't it be simple to at least having a theory on the matter?

Yes, it only happens during some scenes at camera cuts, it doesn't effect game play.

Considering it only happens when frame-gen is on, not when it's off, very likely it's a hiccup specific to that feature. It is in its infancy and this is the first game using it, some hiccups should be expected.