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[LavitzSlambert]

Have I gone back in time to 2015? This has been the gameplan for a long time, and AMD has been proven not to be able to compete in the high end market time and time again. I get it though - easier to avoid competing, try to sell mid range cards, and let Nvidia price gouge while you ride coattails into complacency.

1. Wait for Nvidia to announce prices for their mid range cards.
2.Price your highest end (mid range) cards $30 below Nvidia equivalents.
3. ??????????
4. Profit

If AMD actually wanted to increase their marketshare significantly, they could do so at any point and price their GPUs by undercutting Nvidia. It's much easier to avoid competition because who else is going to stop them? We need Battlemage to be a huge success to scare some competition back into this market.

 

[Bry0]

I don’t entirely buy it. They are setting expectations for this gen. I bet they will try for high end again with the next generation 9900xt or whatever it will be called. They can’t deliver a full stack consistently like nvidia for whatever reason and try to be like “oh yeah totally intentional from the start”.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

for people like me that don't like to read

 

[simpatico]

The GPU in the GTX 280 was almost double the size though. AMD had a big performance per area lead that they subsequently lost.

It's possible the AMD 8800 XT could be priced aggressively if Navi 48 isn't too much bigger than Navi 32.

I think they're more likely to succeed financially if they go after the value market than trying to compete on the highest end. I wonder if the design of the chips would change if value was the highest priority. I don't know enough about what is possible. The 4870 and 280 might have had material differences that explain the cost and perf gap, but getting to that gap by any means would be a good priority. Even if it means doing away with the x900 tier altogether. They're not gonna catch Nvidia on the bleeding edge.

 

[CuNi]

IMHO the issue with AMD isn't that they don't try to compete with the XX90s, it's that NVIDIA has many better solutions.
Tensor Cores, DLSS etc.
If AMD were to have actual alternatives, not ones just on paper but in quality and performance too, many more would buy AMD even if they wouldn't have XX90 competitors.
The Mainstream sentiment is DLSS, Raytracing etc. where NVIDIA is currently king, down the whole stack of GPUs, not just the king.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

They want cheap AMD cards, so that NVIDIA has to lower their prices, too. And then they would buy the NVIDIA cards.

This has been the problem for years now. The reality is that very few people actually want to buy AMD video cards no matter how much cheaper they may be. AMD knows it too, that's why these days they just look at the nearest performing Nvidia card and set their price at some arbitrary value $50-100 slightly cheaper

 

[namenotfound]

They're doing well with the MI300X in the data center and they have demand for their integrated graphics with handhelds and the PS5. If they can build enough, I bet Strix Halo could be a really nice market for gaming pre-builds. They keep a presence in the smaller, comparative to data center and workstation graphics cards, PC gaming crowd and build up their profits with the larger higher margin enterprise customers. The presence in consoles and low-mid range PCs gives them feedback to keep working on their software until they've built up their company enough to compete at the high end again. 20+ years of buying graphics cards and not once have I been interested in flagship cards. 20 years ago Youtube wasn't a thing and neither was LLM training. We've gone through big data, video streaming with real time transcoding, crypto mining, to now AI big data processing. The most popular games are Fortnite, Roblox, Counter Strike, Genshin, Honkai, etc. AMD doesn't have to chase the gamer crown to fund and grow their business. Data center growth will benefit gamers down the line from a better funded AMD that has a larger software developer workforce

 

[Haint]

But people buy down the product stack because you have the halo product that's the king of the hill. So many people buy nvidia because they have the 4090s of the world, even if they're ripping you off with the -60 and -70 tier cards.

Bruh

Actually a shit ton of people just buy the king itself. 4090 is a top 25 GPU on steam and has probably sold somewhere between 1.5 and 2 million units all told, or around 3 BILLION in revenue on a single halo product. Radeon is just a trash ass company who can't compete on merit, so their PR mouthpiece is peddling copium to AMD fanboys. You really think AMD doesn't want a $3 billion product if they could actually build it?

 

[Sanepar]

But people buy down the product stack because you have the halo product that's the king of the hill. So many people buy nvidia because they have the 4090s of the world, even if they're ripping you off with the -60 and -70 tier cards.

Bruh

3090/4090 and 3080/4080 doesn't represent even 10% of gpus sales so he is kind of right. If they can deliver better products than xx70 and xx60 they will be in a great position to compete.

 

[SolidQ]

If they can deliver better products than xx70 and xx60 they will be in a great position to compete.

If you see in steam, most are xx50/xx60 cards. Seems they want RV770 vs GT 200 strategy

Software side is ok , except 3D(seems need more optimization)

Spoiler

would be interesting to see test in Blender 4.2

Anyway bonus. Strix Point Windows update

Spoiler

 

[Kataploom]

It's ok, they should play on their strengths, that will probably give them better chances in the mid-range space which is what most of GPU owners like them anyway

 

[Insane Metal]

That's a bummer. Nvidia will keep on raising prices reigning alone in this high end market.

 

[hinch7]

Not surprising, AMD is still several years behind in tech from Nvidia. I guess they've found success like with their HD series, harking back the HD 4870/4850 days. Which worked for them and is a way better strategy than playing second best.

At the end of the day consumers just want performant GPU's, to play some games. And perferably not have to pay out of their nose to do so. If they fulfil a market that has largely ignored; which is $200-300, and isn't completly shit.. well that's theirs for the taking. If they want it.

 

[Haint]

If you see in steam, most are xx50/xx60 cards. Seems they want RV770 vs GT 200 strategy

Software side is ok , except 3D(seems need more optimization)

Spoiler

would be interesting to see test in Blender 4.2

Anyway bonus. Strix Point Windows update

Spoiler

It takes 5 - 10 XX50/XX60 sales to equal a single 4090 in terms of revenue, and probably up to 25x to match it in profit. Nvidia earns somewhere between $1200 and $1400 profit on a single median $1800 4090 sale Vs. maybe $50 - $100 on a XX50/XX60. Now which product do you think AMD actually wants to build if they could?

 

[digital_ghost]

Yeah agree with that. I remember building my first cutting edge PC in 2007, for about 85000 total cost (including monitor). In 2013 I shelled out about 100,000 total. Not bad still. Suddenly in 2020 the total cost escalated to 150,000 (mainly because of 75k GPU) but now my next one in 2025 seems it might cost 300,000, which is crazy. Add the cost of 65" OLEDs and we are looking at 500,000. That's some serious dough.

Not to mention my wife might kill me too.

$100,000 for a pc.

We need to get this guy a tag for NeoGaf's Richest Member.

Millions of people in Africa make $1,000 a year salary. It would take them 100 years to make $100,000. They be dead.

Count your blessings son.

 

[TheDreadLord]

The flagship may not be the main revenue driver, but it’s what solidifies the brand. Few remember the RX cards, but everyone associates NVidia with the RTX series. I hope that AMD doesn’t give up on the long run.

 

[demigod]

What high end AMD cards is this clown talking about? Over 2 decades already and I haven’t bought a high end card from them because none are worth it when they are getting slaughtered by the competition.

 

[SolidQ]

What high end AMD cards is this clown talking about? Over 2 decades already and I haven’t bought a high end card from them because none are worth it when they are getting slaughtered by the competition.

HD7970 kill gtx 680, not 2 decades, 290x kill 780ti, that their last true high end. RDNA2 is difference story, but fine cards.

 

[Crayon]

Did they really say they want 40-50% market share?

That must be new because they've been pricing gpu's like they are happy to be the pointless alternative.

If it's true that they suddenly want market share, the really have to look at pricing. Everyone liked the 7800xt because the price kinda made sense for a change. But that very same card could have caused waves if it was $50 cheaper.

An 8600xt with 12gb for $250 would actually make a case for itself. Something actually worth buying and at a price that makes a PS5 look expensive. And not leave behind a bunch of poor youtube reviews because it wasn't worth it at the launch price.

 

[SportsFan581]

Hopefully they come out swinging in the low to mid range. The higher tier cards typically tie the hands of AMD and Nvidia since they have to protect the top of the stack as they move down.

 

[gatti-man]

Alright, so let' me say this as a 7900XTX owner and as an AMD/NVIDIA/Broadcom/TSMC investor.

I completely understand it, there's literally 1 person in real life I know that has one (among my best friends) and some bunch of guys from /r/raedeon that actually has anything above a 7800XT. That's simply because it doesn't make any sense. The only reason I have the 7900XTX is due to being an open box deal at 780€ and the fact that I hate to use upscales at 3440x1440.

AMD's situation and focus is on the Datacenter, we all know that and I'd rather have them go that route and only chase performance at mid range on the PC. Their main market for gaming revenue comes from consoles and they already will have an 'Halo' product there with the PS5 Pro.

When it comes to PC Gaming they indeed need to focus on the low-mid end segment (even though I think the low end sector will become an APU one in the future)

Now for them to have success they need to focus on the 8600/8700/8800 line up with good pricing and good incentives. Also they need to continue with the software stack to their last gen owners, that's really really important.

So you don’t know anyone with a lot of money. Guess how many people I know with 4080s and 4090s over ten.

People who think no one buys high end cards are kidding themselves. AMD has a shit reputation among gamers especially those that can afford better setups bc their drivers aren’t even close to nvidias and DLSS is like pure magic at this point for the high end crowd.

This entire statement is “we are getting absolutely smoked by nvidia so why even try” and if you truly invest you know nvidia was absolutely killing it with these cards even before the AI blow up.

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

last checked nvidia has 88% of the market. And has been kicking AMDs GPU ass across every category of GPU.

And this fucker is going about a roundabout nice guy way of saying we can't compete?

Here AMD, here is a hint, get your RT shit sorted, get your AI version of FSR sorted, and undercut Nvidia on price by 10-20% in every category. You win, it's that simple.

 

[MikeM]

last checked nvidia has 88% of the market. And has been kicking AMDs GPU ass across every category of GPU.

And this fucker is going about a roundabout nice guy way of saying we can't compete?

Here AMD, here is a hint, get your RT shit sorted, get your AI version of FSR sorted, and undercut Nvidia on price by 10-20% in every category. You win, it's that simple.

Right? Especially on the AI FSR front- wtf is it AMD? I have AI cores doing nothing that could be used.

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

Right? Especially on the AI FSR front- wtf is it AMD? I have AI cores doing nothing that could be used.

I am not one for conspiracies... but I have this theory that AMD has at least 10%+ of Nvidia stock bought under some subsidiary that no one can tie to them.

At this point that is the only logical explanation for how long AMD has just not done the obvious thing to compete with Nvidia. Its like they are self-sabotaging themselves to help Nvidia stock go up.

 

[MikeM]

I am not one for conspiracies... but I have this theory that AMD has at least 10%+ of Nvidia stock bought under some subsidiary that no one can tie to them.

At this point that is the only logical explanation for how long AMD has just not done the obvious thing to compete with Nvidia. Its like they are self-sabotaging themselves to help Nvidia stock go up.

I don’t know but its agitating. Im looking hard at the 5080 when it comes out. If its decent, I may part with the 7900xt. I love it but AMD is dragging its feet hard in the AI upscaling while Nvidia has been doing since the 2000 series?

 

[Gaiff]

HD7970 kill gtx 680, not 2 decades, 290x kill 780ti, that their last true high end. RDNA2 is difference story, but fine cards.

None of these is true. The 7970 and GTX 680 were close, but the 7970 did have 3GB for the base model. You had 4GB 680s though. This all goes out the window when you consider the state of AMD’s software stack at the time. That’s when their reputation for bad drivers was at its highest.

The R9 290X killing the 780 Ti is once again blatantly untrue. The 780 Ti was faster for the majority of their relevance on the market. This is to say nothing of the high power consumption of the 290X, extreme temps, and infamous "jet engine" noise level. It was most definitely not a better or more desirable product than the 780 Ti.

 

[namenotfound]

I'll chip in again. The MI300 data center card has been a hit. A $20,000 card. The MI300X is benchmarking well and will certainly be a hit beyond any of their consumer directed cards. EPYC data center CPUs have been a hit for 7 years but they're just recently breaking 30% market share. If AMD is balancing investment to still have a healthy profit while growing their software development staff, it makes most sense to concentrate their TSMC orders on EPYC, Threadripper, and AMD Instinct GPUs. They announced multiple Instinct GPUs recently. That's the focus for graphics cards

 

[ahtlas7]

It’s already deprioritized.
How long did it take for them to launch a 4090 competitor?

 

[Rickyiez]

They also doesn't seems to know how to undercut Nvidia . 7800XT for example , it could be more popular if they named it the 7700XT so that people can see how much improvement it had over last gen 6700XT and 3060s .

 

[lh032]

Dayum nvidia is going to charge "pcmr" pricing on their GPU

 

[vaibhavpisal]

They need to have good upscaling.

Mid range doesn’t mean they can get away with having poor upscaling.

Ray tracing I can look beyond. Any good engine doesn’t care about hardware used and performs well on amd as well.

 

[kittoo]

$100,000 for a pc.

We need to get this guy a tag for NeoGaf's Richest Member.

Millions of people in Africa make $1,000 a year salary. It would take them 100 years to make $100,000. They be dead.

Count your blessings son.

LOL I wish.
It's INR. I was replying to another Indian Gaffer.

 

[TheRaidenPT]

So you don’t know anyone with a lot of money. Guess how many people I know with 4080s and 4090s over ten.

People who think no one buys high end cards are kidding themselves. AMD has a shit reputation among gamers especially those that can afford better setups bc their drivers aren’t even close to nvidias and DLSS is like pure magic at this point for the high end crowd.

This entire statement is “we are getting absolutely smoked by nvidia so why even try” and if you truly invest you know nvidia was absolutely killing it with these cards even before the AI blow up.

I’m talking about AMd high end holders not NVIDIA.

 

[peish]

Rdna4 is probably a failure in engineering, what happened to the chiplet gpu hype? Just hype.

"deprioritizing flagship" is just a capitalist excuse to say we sucked this round

 

[ChuckeRearmed]

What's the point of aiming and lower end market if newer Nvidia GPU with all their features like DLSS and RTX will become lower in price and still remain powerful hardware due to their features? People will just buy lower tier Nvidia GPU. AMD needs to fix their software support.

 

[welshrat]

None of these is true. The 7970 and GTX 680 were close, but the 7970 did have 3GB for the base model. You had 4GB 680s though. This all goes out the window when you consider the state of AMD’s software stack at the time. That’s when their reputation for bad drivers was at its highest.

The R9 290X killing the 780 Ti is once again blatantly untrue. The 780 Ti was faster for the majority of their relevance on the market. This is to say nothing of the high power consumption of the 290X, extreme temps, and infamous "jet engine" noise level. It was most definitely not a better or more desirable product than the 780 Ti.

Yeah agreed, although I had a 290X (wanted a 780 ti) due to 4GB Ram but it was hot and noisy, even my AIB ASUS one with 3 fans, have to say even back then though I never had any driver issues. switched sides a few times since then but happy at the moment with my 7900GRE

 

[ap_puff]

Actually a shit ton of people just buy the king itself. 4090 is a top 25 GPU on steam and has probably sold somewhere between 1.5 and 2 million units all told, or around 3 BILLION in revenue on a single halo product. Radeon is just a trash ass company who can't compete on merit, so their PR mouthpiece is peddling copium to AMD fanboys. You really think AMD doesn't want a $3 billion product if they could actually build it?

I don't think the 4090 has ever broken 1% on the steam hardware survey, if they sold 1.5-2m units then half of them are being used in AI training rigs and not gaming rigs. Also, AMD's problem has never been hardware. It's always been software, they don't put enough effort into making a good software ecosystem for their products even if by raw compute the hardware is competitive. That's not indicative of a "trash ass company", they just haven't had money to do anything about it until basically the last 3 years.

 

[ap_puff]

Rdna4 is probably a failure in engineering, what happened to the chiplet gpu hype? Just hype.

"deprioritizing flagship" is just a capitalist excuse to say we sucked this round

They have a big chiplet GPU, it's called MI300X and it costs $20,000 lmao

 

[Agent_4Seven]

Fuckin' cowards. Without competition in high-end market, it's only going to get worse and worse along with the quality and everything else.

 

[SolidQ]

The 780 Ti was faster for the majority of their relevance on the market.

Same going 7970 vs 680
and other games

Spoiler

 

[Insanemaelstrom]

Does and have an equivalent to nvidia's 5000 Ada gpu? Wonder why they don't pursue professional graphics cards for MNCs, that's a significant market to not enter.

 

[Bashtee]

It takes 5 - 10 XX50/XX60 sales to equal a single 4090 in terms of revenue, and probably up to 25x to match it in profit. Nvidia earns somewhere between $1200 and $1400 profit on a single median $1800 4090 sale Vs. maybe $50 - $100 on a XX50/XX60. Now which product do you think AMD actually wants to build if they could?

I think AMD actually wants to build Instinct cards because those are the real moneymakers. And this announcement suggests that this is precisely what they will do.

 

[Gaiff]

Same going 7970 vs 680
and other games

Spoiler

These are mostly games from 2016-2019, 4-7 years after those cards came out. Those 2GB show their age. Also didn’t check if the 7970 in this review is the Ghz edition or not, this matters too.

March 2012, Techpowerup.

Spoiler

Anandtech March 2012:

For the last few generations AMD has always put up a good fight and always managed to spoil NVIDIA in some manner, be it by beating NVIDIA to market by months like we saw with the 5000 series, or significantly undercutting NVIDIA and forcing them into a bloody price war as we saw with the 4000 series. This time AMD once again spoiled NVIDIA by releasing the Radeon HD 7970 nearly 3 months early, but as always, at the end of the day it’s NVIDIA who once again takes the performance crown for the highest performing single-GPU card.

Source

Spoiler

Same thing with the 290X and 780 Ti. Go find articles from 2012 up to around 2017 and you’ll see similar conclusions.

2016 and onwards is when the FineWine meme started. One of the big reasons Kepler aged so poorly is because of its lack of async compute. It wasn’t until Maxwell that NVIDIA GPUs had it. DOOM 2016 is a great example of a game that leveraged it and ran far better on older AMD hardware at the time. There’s a reason I said "while they were relevant on the market."

 

[SolidQ]

These are mostly games from 2016-2019

and people can still play games. About TPU i know, that why relative perfomance not exactly true perfomance, because it's testing from start.
Even my GTX 670(which essentially GTX 680) was quickly outdated, while some friend easily can play games on 7870 with more fps.

 

[Hohenheim]

I've sold my high end Nvidia card, and will be using a rx 7700 until the 50-series arrives.
Thought it would be smart to sell while I could still get a good price.
Actually looking forward to see how it feels to be part of the "red team" for a while!
Will obviously be saving a few games for the next Nvidia card (Black Myth etc), and forget about ray tracing until then, but I hope the 7700 can provide a steady 60fps in most games at 1440p.

 

[Gaiff]

and people can still play games. About TPU i know, that why relative perfomance not exactly true perfomance, because it's testing from start.
Even my GTX 670(which essentially GTX 680) was quickly outdated, while some friend easily can play games on 7870 with more fps.

They can play games, but back then, new GPUs came out every year, not every 2 years like now. By 2017, you had the 780, 980, and 1080 on the market, the 680 was pretty much irrelevant. I also wouldn’t say the 7970 was better when it took over 4 years for it to truly begin pulling away. The 970 and 1060 at $329 and $299 respectively, made those old Kepler cards completely irrelevant. And we can also talk about the awful AMD drivers at the time and inferior multi-GPU performance with the infamous stutters.

The TPU chart isn’t relative performance over several years, it’s the aggregate of the games reviewed.

I know for a fact that for most of their lives, GTX 600 cards were more desirable than HD 7000 cards.

 

[SolidQ]

TX 600 cards were more desirable than HD 7000 cards.

Were, but it's was my worst card i ever buyed. Because it's outdated so fast, compared to HD series. Literally that was scam from NV.

he 970 and 1060 at $329 and $299 respectively, made those old Kepler cards completely irrelevant

not everyone change cards every time. Some people sitting 6-10 years

we can also talk about the awful AMD drivers at the time

Never have problems with them in ATI times, and some AMD times

 

[Gaiff]

Were, but it's was my worst card i ever buyed. Because it's outdated so fast, compared to HD series. Literally that was scam from NV.


not everyone change cards every time. Some people sitting 6-10 years


Never have problems with them in ATI times, and some AMD times

Yeah, Kepler aged badly. There’s a reason they were often memed as Kekler. And I know people didn’t necessarily upgrade every year, but there were much cheaper and better GPUs at the time. When people saw their 680 having problems, they just moved to the next NVIDIA offering, so becoming better than NVIDIA 4 years later didn’t do much for AMD within the context of this thread.

 

[SolidQ]

were often memed as Kekler.

it's for real kekler

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Yeah, Kepler aged badly. There’s a reason they were often memed as Kekler. And I know people didn’t necessarily upgrade every year, but there were much cheaper and better GPUs at the time. When people saw their 680 having problems, they just moved to the next NVIDIA offering, so becoming better than NVIDIA 4 years later didn’t do much for AMD within the context of this thread.

The other issue is trying to say that a GPU generation from 2012 which is 12 years ago is somehow relevant to 2024

This is like saying the Dallas Cowboys are good because they won a Super Bowl in 1996